SMGs Anyone?

The main body of the LCC and its practical application, including all 4 published versions of Book 1 with their inserts: the 1959 tan cover; the 1959 light green cover Japanese edition; the 1970‘s white cover, which adds an illustrated River Trip to the 1959 edition, and the currently available Fourth Edition, 2001.

The authorization code is the first word on Page 198 of the Fourth Edition of the LCCTO.

Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams

Forum rules
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice
Bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

SMGs Anyone?

Post by Bob »

First bite.

Transitioning from the ideas of AMT & CMG, the chordmode of interest is afforded its PMG status, thus instead of suggesting an alternative within the parent LC, now implies a different parent parent LC in a more or less remote relationship as determined by the circle of fifths.

In the early Coltrane examples, he takes one of his signature licks (e.g., 1235) and plays them over a chord, other than the one from which it may have been originally derived, thus creating a 'poly-chordmode' sound.

For example (see p129) 12b35 or Bb C Db F suggests a Bb-7 ~ Db Lyd [VI]. This could be played over a Bb7 ~ Ab Lyd [II].
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Post by Bob »

10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Post by Bob »

On the above link, I find myself in a Pythagorean trance by the fact that in the Lydian scale spelled as stacked perfect 5ths, the triad qualities are Major Major Major minor minor minor diminished. This is the only mode which on which this occurs. Hmmm.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
dogbite
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Post by dogbite »

"On the above link, I find myself in a Pythagorean trance by the fact that in the Lydian scale spelled as stacked perfect 5ths, the triad qualities are Major Major Major minor minor minor diminished. This is the only mode which on which this occurs. Hmmm."

I(v,h) V(h) II(h) vi(v,h) iii(h) vii(h)

that's mighty sharp of you bob...
Bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Post by Bob »

dogbite wrote: that's mighty sharp of you bob...
Arf!!

SMG is quite a haystack. Finding the needle, i.e., a 3x5 principle to guide SMG choices is a challenge (at least for one who is challenged). Well, you get the point.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
chespernevins
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Post by chespernevins »

Db:
I(v,h) V(h) II(h) vi(v,h) iii(h) vii(h)
Never looked at it quite this way. Interesting! There are a lot of implications here, aren't there? (I feel so slow sometimes!)

Very nice visualization tool.

Thanks Bob!
strachs
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Post by strachs »

That circle of fifths diagram is cool. Did you also notice WHICH majors and minors they are?

They are the major triads of a PMG and it's CMG - related keys, plus their relative minors.
Bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Post by Bob »

strachs wrote:That circle of fifths diagram is cool. Did you also notice WHICH majors and minors they are?

They are the major triads of a PMG and it's CMG - related keys, plus their relative minors.
Si!
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Post by Bob »

dogbite wrote:
I(v,h) V(h) II(h) vi(v,h) iii(h) vii(h)...
Why is II(h) and not II(v,h)?
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
chespernevins
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Post by chespernevins »

Strachs,

Yeah, that's what I took away from the "v" and "h" designations in Dogbite's example.

You're right to explicitly point it out for the sake of better communication.
dogbite
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Post by dogbite »

dogbite:

"I(v,h) V(h) II(h) vi(v,h) iii(h) vii(h)"

Bob:

"Why is II(h) and not II(v,h)?"

you are of course correct. i was thinking major (I) and minor (VI) as modal genres rather than the II or "seventh" modal genre, but i think the point is valid whether or not the designation of [v,h] is applied to the II...

db
strachs
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Post by strachs »

Not sure if this helps....

One way that a Secondary, but not neccessarily Alternate Modal Genre can be arrived at, is by finding two chordmodes that can contain the same chord. For example, the Dm+7 chord is found as a four-note chord on mode VI of F LA, and on mode I of D LD (although Russell calls it "diminished major seventh" when found in the LD scale - not sure where that name comes from).

That being the case, that chord can be placed in either tonal environment. At the moment, I can't recall why this does not qualify as an AMG, but the term SMG, being broader, should allow for this substitution.

I havn't looked too closeley for other such possiblities, but when I do, I'm going to be using a chart like this to spot it:

I II III IV+ V VI VII
F G A B C D E
A B C D E F G
C D E F G A B
E F G A B C D
G A B C D E F
B C D E F G A
D E F G A B C

I II III IV+ V+ VI VII
F G A B C# D E
A B C# D E F G
C# D E F G A B
E F G A B C# D
G A B C# D E F
B C# D E F G A
D E F G A B C#

I II III- IV+ V VI VII
F G Ab B C D E
Ab B C D E F G
C D E F G Ab B
E F G Ab B C D
G Ab B C D E F
B C D E F G Ab
D E F G Ab B C

I II III IV+ V VI VII-
F G A B C D Eb
A B C D Eb F G
C D Eb F G A B
Eb F G A B C D
G A B C D Eb F
B C D Eb F G A
D Eb F G A B C

I II III IV+ V+ VII-
F G A B C# Eb
A B C# Eb F G
C# Eb F G A B
Eb F G A B C#
G A B C# Eb F
B C# Eb F G A
C# Eb F G A B

Horizontally, the chart lists the modal genres of a scale in seconds. Vertically, those same notes are listed in thirds, to make the chord degrees more visible. The first set is Lydian, the second is Lydian Augmented, the third Lydian Diminished, etc.

I would have pasted the entire chart into the post, but then I loose formatting. Hope this gives you the general idea of how I'm examining modes of the principal scales...
dogbite
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Post by dogbite »

strachs:

"That circle of fifths diagram is cool. Did you also notice WHICH majors and minors they are?

They are the major triads of a PMG and it's CMG - related keys, plus their relative minors."

yup. note also the intentional pun, "that's mighty *sharp* of you bob"

F C G Dm Am Em

each triad is produced by either a mode I (F C G) or a mode VI (Dm Am Em) lydian scale in a *sharp* direction, further demonstrating the ladder of fifths:

B
E
A
D
G
C
F

db
strachs
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Post by strachs »

Didnt' catch that originally, no. But yep, there it is, in all it's funnyness.
strachs
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Post by strachs »

Again on that diagram Bob posted....

Wouldn't it be cool if someone could make such a "interactive" slide-rule type tool to display the modes of a Principal Scale in all the keys, and how they bend and twist when morphed into the more outgoing scales?

If anyone knows the web develper who created that cycle of fifths page......
Post Reply