Harmonic Minor

[chespernevins]

Strachs,

Thanks for the clarification.

I can see we’re all on pretty much the same page here, given room for questions due to the “book II factorâ€

[strachs]

Very good observation. I do find that in general, when two or more principles of music (natural phenomena of sound/perception) are combined, they make for powerful devices of communication/expression.

In your example, you are combining the MELODIC, horizontal tendency of a note to "gravitate" downward (in the FLAT direction) by a fifth (the root movement) and the HARMONIC, horizontal tendency of a LCS to "resolve" to the LCS a fifth in the SHARP direction.

In addition to combining these two forces, metric forces can be combined with these as well, exploiting the extra force felt by a downbeat with the notes/chords we want emphasized.

It's amazing how this kind of thing was obviously felt intuitively by musicians/composers for centuries, but can be articulated and exploited more objectively and intelligently with the insights offered by the Concept.

It's great that you discovered this powerful device!

[strachs]

Motherlode wrote:
[quote=Something needs to be said about rhythm at this point...give me a day or two I have have something I'd like to introduce.[/quote]

I can't wait to see what it is! Something tells me, too, that the Concept has something to offer on a metric analysis level, but I'm not sure yet what it is..... I'd love to hear what you have in mind!

[chespernevins]

In the Concept you are free to treat horizontal scales vertically. Listen to Bill Evans 'Spring is Here' w/ Lafaro. At one point over an Emin7b5 he plays Gm/maj7, Amin7b5, Bbmaj7#5 all from G harmonic minor! It sounds so cool.

Sandy - any chance you could post a little sound clip of this? Or maybe a few measures of transcription?

[sandywilliams]

It's bar three of the version on Portrait in Jazz.

[motherlode]

Would this be the passage in question?

http://www.4shared.com/file/70255989/57 ... sHere.html

[sandywilliams]

That’s it. Thank you! The exact three chords start at 12 seconds. I have ‘jazzheimers’ and had remembered the changes in the wrong key in my initial post about this. The key is Ab. The chord in question is a Dmin7b5. Over this chord he plays Fmimaj7, Gmi7b5, Abmaj7#5. The following change is a Db7 over which Bill plays Abmi/maj7, Bbm7, Cbmaj7#5.
The Fmimaj7, Gmi7b5, Abmaj7#5 are really interesting. Nowdays people would automatically plug in the F melodic minor( Ab LA to us) over a Dmin7b5. Why would Evans choose the chords/harmonized scale he did? For one thing there is a momentary ‘rub’ between the bass playing D natural and the D flat note in the Gmi7b5. Maybe he liked rubs like that. It is possible that these chords were used because with the exception to the E natural note, the chords are more aligned with the overall horizontal scale of the piece, Ab major. So, you could look at it as F harmonic minor or Ab major#5.
Now I have something new to experiment with over mi7b5 passages.
(The changes in the old Real Book don’t match this version but the changes in one of Chuck Sher’s New Real Books nail it)

[motherlode]

Sandy,
I would put my money on the RUB factor. Any time I encounter such movements I automatically attribute it as a direct result of the the "bebop (1/2)step rules".
The essence of which is the negotiation of the (1/2)step in all it's contexts.
In the same way you don't have much of a blues without the "blue note".

[strachs]

Further evidence that horizontal scales are NOT a different phenomenon than the 11-tone vertical order: Page 233; "The eleven tone order brings the fourth degree into the LC Scale. This is necessary in order to allow the four traditionally important horizontal scales to be formed on the Lydian Tonic, where they serve as member scales of the LC Scale."

[strachs]

Another reference to same effect: page 131: "Bar nine shows Miles verticalizing the A min7 chord with an F major scale melody derived from the eleven-tone order of the F LC Scale."

Rather than supposing we are "imposing" a horizontal scale over an otherwise vertical structure, maybe we should just call the Major Scale an 11TO scale, noting that it possesses the horizontal forces or tendencies.

[sandywilliams]

[quote="strachs"]

Rather than supposing we are "imposing" a horizontal scale over an otherwise vertical structure, maybe we should just call the Major Scale an 11TO scale, noting that it possesses the horizontal forces or tendencies.[/quote]
In a vertical situation that is exactly what it is.

[strachs]

I couldn't resist adding another quote from the book that again illustrates how subjective the whole vertical vs horizontal thing is. On page 251, he says: “each Gravity Centering Element is given the authority to designate its associate level as the Prevailing Level of Tonal Gravity when activated by the focus of the musician.â€

[sandywilliams]

Sometimes they( the horizontal and vertical elements) are pretty clear cut. For instance, the melody of Stella By Starlight is entirely within one major scale except for one note and the harmony for the song still takes an interesting journey. A blues can be reharmonized to a great degree but still accommodate a blues scale quite nicely.
The Concept leaves many choices at the discretion of the composer, improviser, or even listener so in that way it could be describe as having subjective elements.
By the way, it is a ‘concept’. Pat Martino has a 'concept 'that involves converting everything to minor. Mick Goodrick’s comments about the LCC in his Advancing Guitarist book put it nicely into perspectiveâ€

[strachs]

Sounds like a pretty balanced approach. Just as composers through the centuries each had their own personal approach and theories that they usually did not share with others, each of us will ultimately come up with our own way of describing the principles and concepts that science and art have uncovered to varying degrees. Maybe we'll never map out a concrete theory whose every detail can be universally agreed upon. That's not necessarily a bad thing.....

In any case, by sharing with us his personal insights into equal temperament, Russell certainly opened our eyes to a much broader view and approach to all music.

[strachs]

We sometimes find ourselves speaking of a "horizontal situation" or a "vertical situation". I'm not sure they are mutually exclusive.

The subject of CMGs (in my understanding - feel free to ask me why) demonstrates that Horizontal and Vertical Tonal Gravity are in effect at the same time. The focus of the musician determines which will have greater authority over what notes are chosen to be sounded. One or the other will be chosen to be exploited, the musician deciding whether to focus more on the vertical coloring in the moment, or to yield to resolving tendencies.

A comparison, is that when learning the “church modesâ€