Uberbill's questions

Questions and answers on the basic structure of the LCC

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Uberbill's questions

Postby sandywilliams » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:39 pm

Forgive my ignorance, for I have just joined the forum as well as just began reading the LCCOTO. Being an aspiring musician, I too, am struggling with the "Concept" and the original question (above).
I must refer to page 53 of the text regarding GR's reference to tonal gravity wherein he states "...in order to accommodate the evolution of the five main Western chord types (major, minor, seventh, augmented and diminished), the Lydian Chromatic Scale skips the seventh fifth (i.e. the interval of a fifth from B to F# in the key of F Lydian). As a result of this transition from the uninterrupted ladder of successive fifths, the Lydian Chromatic Scale is also referred to as the Western Order Of Tonal Gravity."
This appears to be the only reference I have seen, so far, regarding the lapse of the progression of fifths, as illustrated. Of course, I'm only into Part II, chapter IV. In any event, I was immediately grabbed by this blip in the sequence at first glance. It disturbed me then that there did not seem to be an explanation. (Let's face it, Chart A early on in the text is rather intimidating). Even after reading the statement on page 53, it made me more confused. I thought to myself, what does "in order to accommodate..." mean. My first question was, has he co-opted his theory? Again no explanation. Don't get me wrong, the man is amazing. His explanations are well stated and in easily understandable terms, but occasionally, it begins to levitate into an "outgoing", if you will, manner.
One more fundamental concept I have struggled with (in this early stage of the game) is going into the Lydian Mode III on page 26. Previous to this, in Mode I, II and VI, the sub-principal chords were built on the modal tonic (C being the Lydian tonic) of C, D and A, respectively, using intervals of 3rds. However, beginning with Mode III (E) this pattern is no longer used. The Lydian parent scale is used with the III (E) in the base and it is a Major Mode IIIB. Now, in my "Western" mind I'm thinking E would create a minor chord. What really bugs me is, here again, there is no transition. It's like opening the doors in the Matrix.
Be gentle!

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Re: Uberbill's questions

Postby guitarjazz » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:17 pm

The skipped fifth seems to really throw people for a curve. Vertical Tonal Gravity concerns itself with chordscale unity. The author establishes a continuity by introducing all 12 tones in an order that represents their ability to spawn various chord types, based on an inside/outside continuum. If you accept that the Lydian Tonic is the defining color tone of a chord then it's not too difficult to think of the bII as the most outside of the twelve tones. Also, these tones must be thought of in different way than the Circle of Close To Distant Relationship, Cycle of Fifths, Cycle of Keys, which are related to harmonic progression, in the realm of Horizontal Tonal Gravity.
So, look at various chords and see what happens when you introduce the bII: Cminor7 (Eb LT) introducing an E natural virtually compromises the basic integrity of the chord. Try this on other chords and see what you think. There is no law that says you can't use the E natural but it seems to be the most 'out' tone.
As for the "Lydian Mode III on page 26" it does create an Eminor chord specifically Emi+5, Imaj/IIIB or IIIminor+5, they are really one and the same.
If you play through all those chords on piano I think you'll hear what Russell was getting at. It's different than just going "the C major scale has Cmaj,Dmin,Emi, Fmaj, Gmaj,Amin, Bdim'.
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Re: Uberbill's questions

Postby guitarjazz » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:17 pm

Welcome BTW!
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Re: Uberbill's questions

Postby uberbill » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:40 pm

how do I get to the thread: "Tonal Gravity (again)", April 22,2011?
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Re: Uberbill's questions

Postby sandywilliams » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:27 pm

Not sure. Seems like the 'search' function is a little 'jacked up'. Did you have have another question about Tonal Gravity?
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Re: Uberbill's questions

Postby Andrew » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:44 pm

Awhile back I was thinking about this. I get what Russell i getting, but I think the five western chords idea maybe isn't the best explanation. I think the best logic to this is that if you take a C lydian scale and add a C# to it, you also get a G lydian scale. So you get to lydian scales that are competing against eachother. The same thing with adding an F to a c lydian. You will also come up with an f lydian scale. And so it leaves the flat two and perfect four for last, because those two are the ones that have the most outgoing tonal gravity because they immediately imply additional lydian tonics.
"Life finds a way"- Wayne Shorter
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Re: Uberbill's questions

Postby guitarjazz » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:42 pm

I think George's idea about the Western Order of Tonal Gravity being about the various notes propagating chords is primary. This doesn't deny what you are noting is true. I think it good to understand where he was coming from and not try to read too much extra into it.
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