Chord substitutions

Questions and answers on the basic structure of the LCC

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Chord substitutions

Postby MokshaIs » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:57 am

Could you share any insights that the LCC has provided you in regards to chord substitution?

for instance, lately, I'll play the bIV (-7 b5) for major chords, or utilize maj7 #5 chords for tritone subs...

what are some other ideas...some discoveries?
"space is the place"
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Postby NateComp » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:26 pm

The first thing I did with chord subs was to build a 4 note voicing from one scale and then use it in as many "functions" as I could find.

Like, C Maj 7 b5 (as PMG I, voiced low-to-high as C E F# B) can also be D 13 (II), E min 9 #5 (III), F# min 11 b5 (+IV), Ab 7 #5 #9 (+V), A min 13 (VI), B 11 b9 (VII). As a guitarist I'd also mess around with other inversions or voicings of that one basic chord, like F# C E B, etc.

Then I'd go to another scale and do the same thing, so if I went to a Lyd Aug voicing like C E G# B, it can also be D 13 #11 (II), E 7 #5 (III), F# min 11 b5 - with a natural 9 this time (+IV), Ab 7 #5 #9 (+V), A min/Maj 9 (VI), B 13 b9 (VII).

For a Lyd Dim voicing like C Eb G B, it can also be D 13 b9 (II), E min/Maj 9 #5 (III), F# dim add 11 (+IV), Ab 7 #9 (+V), A Dim 7/Maj 9 (VI), B 7 b9 (VII).

THEN, I'd play through a progression using only these voicings. The really cool thing is that #1, each voicing is only one note away from each other so it was easy to get them under my fingers, no matter how I inverted it, and #2, the overall "function" of the voicing could change even though the fingering didn't. Like, I'd play a standard with lots of II-V's (Major as well as minor), and only use a handful of voicings but get some amazing new harmony. Fun stuff :)
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Postby MokshaIs » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:26 am

Hi Natecomp, thanks for the response.

so were you basically taking the PMG I chord and utilizing it as a sub for all other PMG chords? Did you ever try doing the same thing, but, say with PMG II or III chords as the main chord of substitution?
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Postby NateComp » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:09 pm

Here are some of the other "interesting" things I ran across with chord subs (a lot of this was inspired by Mick Goodrick, gotta give him credit)

In the last post I mentioned the idea of taking a PMG I voicing like C E F# B and using it as D 13 (II), E min 9 #5 (III), F# min 11 b5 (+IV), Ab 7 #5 #9 (+V), A min 13 (VI), B 11 b9 (VII).

Then I had this thought:

What if I don't want to use the same old boring "1-3-5-7" struture? I wonder how many 4 note voicings could I build from just Lydian?

I came up with this list:

1-2-3-#4 1-2-3-5 1-2-3-6 1-2-3-7
1-2-#4-3 1-2-#4-5 1-2-#4-6 1-2-#4-7
1-2-5-3 1-2-5-#4 1-2-5-6 1-2-5-7
1-2-6-3 1-2-6-#4 1-2-6-5 1-2-6-7
1-2-7-3 1-2-7-#4 1-2-7-5 1-2-7-6

1-3-2-#4 1-3-2-5 1-3-2-6 1-3-2-7
1-3-#4-2 1-3-#4-5 1-3-#4-6 1-3-#4-7
1-3-5-2 1-3-5-#4 1-3-5-6 1-3-5-7
1-3-6-2 1-3-6-#4 1-3-6-5 1-3-6-7
1-3-7-2 1-3-7-#4 1-3-7-5 1-3-7-6

1-#4-2-3 1-#4-2-5 1-#4-2-6 1-#4-2-7
1-#4-3-2 1-#4-3-5 1-#4-3-6 1-#4-3-7
1-#4-5-2 1-#4-5-3 1-#4-5-6 1-#4-5-7
1-#4-6-2 1-#4-6-3 1-#4-6-5 1-#4-6-7
1-#4-7-2 1-#4-7-3 1-#4-7-5 1-#4-7-6

1-5-2-3 1-5-2-#4 1-5-2-6 1-5-2-7
1-5-3-2 1-5-3-#4 1-5-3-6 1-5-3-7
1-5-#4-2 1-5-#4-3 1-5-#4-6 1-5-#4-7
1-5-6-2 1-5-6-3 1-5-6-#4 1-5-6-7
1-5-7-2 1-5-7-3 1-5-7-#4 1-5-7-6

1-6-2-3 1-6-2-#4 1-6-2-5 1-6-2-7
1-6-3-2 1-6-3-#4 1-6-3-5 1-6-3-7
1-6-#4-2 1-6-#4-3 1-6-#4-5 1-6-#4-7
1-6-5-2 1-6-5-3 1-6-5-#4 1-6-5-7
1-6-7-2 1-6-7-3 1-6-7-#4 1-6-7-5

1-7-2-3 1-7-2-#4 1-7-2-5 1-7-2-6
1-7-3-2 1-7-3-#4 1-7-3-5 1-7-3-6
1-7-#4-2 1-7-#4-3 1-7-#4-5 1-7-#4-6
1-7-5-2 1-7-5-3 1-7-5-#4 1-7-5-6
1-7-6-2 1-7-6-3 1-7-6-#4 1-7-6-5

So now I've got 120 four note voicings that all come from Lydian, and not only can all of these be used as PMG I sounds, I can use them on any other PMG as subs. The really cool part is looking at the context of a voicing as far as it's relationship to the root of the chord (as far as intervals).

For example, a PMG I voicing of 1-7-#4-2 from C (voiced as C B F# D, kind of like a "C Major 9 #11" sound) becomes:

II: D 13
III: E min 9 b13
+IV: F# min 11 b5 b13
VI: A min 13
VII: B 7 b9 #9

The fun part was finding "cool" voicings among the 120 and then using them in each context.

From there I started to move a single voicing through the scale, kind of a "chord-scale" based off of a single voicing:

So, 1-7-#4-2 moved through the scale becomes:

1-7-#4-2
2-1-5-3
3-2-6-#4

5-#4-1-6
6-5-2-7
7-6-3-1

From C that gives me
1-7-#4-2 = C B F# D
2-1-5-3 = D C G E
3-2-6-#4 = E D A F#

5-#4-1-6 = G F# C A
6-5-2-7 = A G D B
7-6-3-1 = B A E C

THEN I'd take one of these voicings and use THAT in each context.

So what started as:

voicing of 1-7-#4-2 (C B F# D)
I: C Maj 9 #11
II: D 13
III: E min 9 b13
+IV: F# min 11 b5 b13
VI: A min 13
VII: B 7 b9 #9

becomes:

voicing of 2-1-5-3 (D C G E)
I: C Add 9
II: D 13 sus 4
III: E min 7 #5
+IV: F# min 7 b5 b9
VI: A min 11
VII: B 11 b9 #9 b13

And so on - it's a LOT to work through but sooo worth it.

And that's just the 120 from LYDIAN!

Then you can do these:

Lyd Aug:

1-2-3-#4 1-2-3-#5 1-2-3-6 1-2-3-7
1-2-#4-3 1-2-#4-#5 1-2-#4-6 1-2-#4-7
1-2-#5-3 1-2-#5-#4 1-2-#5-6 1-2-#5-7
1-2-6-3 1-2-6-#4 1-2-6-#5 1-2-6-7
1-2-7-3 1-2-7-#4 1-2-7-#5 1-2-7-6

1-3-2-#4 1-3-2-#5 1-3-2-6 1-3-2-7
1-3-#4-2 1-3-#4-#5 1-3-#4-6 1-3-#4-7
1-3-#5-2 1-3-#5-#4 1-3-#5-6 1-3-#5-7
1-3-6-2 1-3-6-#4 1-3-6-#5 1-3-6-7
1-3-7-2 1-3-7-#4 1-3-7-#5 1-3-7-6

1-#4-2-3 1-#4-2-#5 1-#4-2-6 1-#4-2-7
1-#4-3-2 1-#4-3-#5 1-#4-3-6 1-#4-3-7
1-#4-#5-2 1-#4-#5-3 1-#4-#5-6 1-#4-#5-7
1-#4-6-2 1-#4-6-3 1-#4-6-#5 1-#4-6-7
1-#4-7-2 1-#4-7-3 1-#4-7-#5 1-#4-7-6

1-#5-2-3 1-#5-2-#4 1-#5-2-6 1-#5-2-7
1-#5-3-2 1-#5-3-#4 1-#5-3-6 1-#5-3-7
1-#5-#4-2 1-#5-#4-3 1-#5-#4-6 1-#5-#4-7
1-#5-6-2 1-#5-6-3 1-#5-6-#4 1-#5-6-7
1-#5-7-2 1-#5-7-3 1-#5-7-#4 1-#5-7-6

1-6-2-3 1-6-2-#4 1-6-2-#5 1-6-2-7
1-6-3-2 1-6-3-#4 1-6-3-#5 1-6-3-7
1-6-#4-2 1-6-#4-3 1-6-#4-#5 1-6-#4-7
1-6-#5-2 1-6-#5-3 1-6-#5-#4 1-6-#5-7
1-6-7-2 1-6-7-3 1-6-7-#4 1-6-7-#5

1-7-2-3 1-7-2-#4 1-7-2-#5 1-7-2-6
1-7-3-2 1-7-3-#4 1-7-3-#5 1-7-3-6
1-7-#4-2 1-7-#4-3 1-7-#4-#5 1-7-#4-6
1-7-#5-2 1-7-#5-3 1-7-#5-#4 1-7-#5-6
1-7-6-2 1-7-6-3 1-7-6-#4 1-7-6-#5

Lyd Dim:

1-2-b3-#4 1-2-b3-5 1-2-b3-6 1-2-b3-7
1-2-#4-b3 1-2-#4-5 1-2-#4-6 1-2-#4-7
1-2-5-b3 1-2-5-#4 1-2-5-6 1-2-5-7
1-2-6-b3 1-2-6-#4 1-2-6-5 1-2-6-7
1-2-7-b3 1-2-7-#4 1-2-7-5 1-2-7-6

1-b3-2-#4 1-b3-2-5 1-b3-2-6 1-b3-2-7
1-b3-#4-2 1-b3-#4-5 1-b3-#4-6 1-b3-#4-7
1-b3-5-2 1-b3-5-#4 1-b3-5-6 1-b3-5-7
1-b3-6-2 1-b3-6-#4 1-b3-6-5 1-b3-6-7
1-b3-7-2 1-b3-7-#4 1-b3-7-5 1-b3-7-6

1-#4-2-b3 1-#4-2-5 1-#4-2-6 1-#4-2-7
1-#4-b3-2 1-#4-b3-5 1-#4-b3-6 1-#4-b3-7
1-#4-5-2 1-#4-5-b3 1-#4-5-6 1-#4-5-7
1-#4-6-2 1-#4-6-b3 1-#4-6-5 1-#4-6-7
1-#4-7-2 1-#4-7-b3 1-#4-7-5 1-#4-7-6

1-5-2-b3 1-5-2-#4 1-5-2-6 1-5-2-7
1-5-b3-2 1-5-b3-#4 1-5-b3-6 1-5-b3-7
1-5-#4-2 1-5-#4-b3 1-5-#4-6 1-5-#4-7
1-5-6-2 1-5-6-b3 1-5-6-#4 1-5-6-7
1-5-7-2 1-5-7-b3 1-5-7-#4 1-5-7-6

1-6-2-b3 1-6-2-#4 1-6-2-5 1-6-2-7
1-6-b3-2 1-6-b3-#4 1-6-b3-5 1-6-b3-7
1-6-#4-2 1-6-#4-b3 1-6-#4-5 1-6-#4-7
1-6-5-2 1-6-5-b3 1-6-5-#4 1-6-5-7
1-6-7-2 1-6-7-b3 1-6-7-#4 1-6-7-5

1-7-2-b3 1-7-2-#4 1-7-2-5 1-7-2-6
1-7-b3-2 1-7-b3-#4 1-7-b3-5 1-7-b3-6
1-7-#4-2 1-7-#4-b3 1-7-#4-5 1-7-#4-6
1-7-5-2 1-7-5-b3 1-7-5-#4 1-7-5-6
1-7-6-2 1-7-6-b3 1-7-6-#4 1-7-6-5

Lyd Dom:

1-2-3-#4 1-2-3-5 1-2-3-6 1-2-3-b7
1-2-#4-3 1-2-#4-5 1-2-#4-6 1-2-#4-b7
1-2-5-3 1-2-5-#4 1-2-5-6 1-2-5-b7
1-2-6-3 1-2-6-#4 1-2-6-5 1-2-6-b7
1-2-b7-3 1-2-b7-#4 1-2-b7-5 1-2-b7-6

1-3-2-#4 1-3-2-5 1-3-2-6 1-3-2-b7
1-3-#4-2 1-3-#4-5 1-3-#4-6 1-3-#4-b7
1-3-5-2 1-3-5-#4 1-3-5-6 1-3-5-b7
1-3-6-2 1-3-6-#4 1-3-6-5 1-3-6-b7
1-3-b7-2 1-3-b7-#4 1-3-b7-5 1-3-b7-6

1-#4-2-3 1-#4-2-5 1-#4-2-6 1-#4-2-b7
1-#4-3-2 1-#4-3-5 1-#4-3-6 1-#4-3-b7
1-#4-5-2 1-#4-5-3 1-#4-5-6 1-#4-5-b7
1-#4-6-2 1-#4-6-3 1-#4-6-5 1-#4-6-b7
1-#4-b7-2 1-#4-b7-3 1-#4-b7-5 1-#4-b7-6

1-5-2-3 1-5-2-#4 1-5-2-6 1-5-2-b7
1-5-3-2 1-5-3-#4 1-5-3-6 1-5-3-b7
1-5-#4-2 1-5-#4-3 1-5-#4-6 1-5-#4-b7
1-5-6-2 1-5-6-3 1-5-6-#4 1-5-6-b7
1-5-b7-2 1-5-b7-3 1-5-b7-#4 1-5-b7-6

1-6-2-3 1-6-2-#4 1-6-2-5 1-6-2-b7
1-6-3-2 1-6-3-#4 1-6-3-5 1-6-3-b7
1-6-#4-2 1-6-#4-3 1-6-#4-5 1-6-#4-b7
1-6-5-2 1-6-5-3 1-6-5-#4 1-6-5-b7
1-6-b7-2 1-6-b7-3 1-6-b7-#4 1-6-b7-5

1-b7-2-3 1-b7-2-#4 1-b7-2-5 1-b7-2-6
1-b7-3-2 1-b7-3-#4 1-b7-3-5 1-b7-3-6
1-b7-#4-2 1-b7-#4-3 1-b7-#4-5 1-b7-#4-6
1-b7-5-2 1-b7-5-3 1-b7-5-#4 1-b7-5-6
1-b7-6-2 1-b7-6-3 1-b7-6-#4 1-b7-6-5

Aux Aug:

1-2-3-b5 1-2-3-#5 1-2-3-b7
1-2-b5-3 1-2-b5-#5 1-2-b5-b7
1-2-#5-3 1-2-#5-b5 1-2-#5-b7
1-2-b7-3 1-2-b7-b5 1-2-b7-#5

1-3-2-b5 1-3-2-#5 1-3-2-b7
1-3-b5-2 1-3-b5-#5 1-3-b5-b7
1-3-#5-2 1-3-#5-b5 1-3-#5-b7
1-3-b7-2 1-3-b7-b5 1-3-b7-#5

1-b5-2-3 1-b5-2-#5 1-b5-2-b7
1-b5-3-2 1-b5-3-#5 1-b5-3-b7
1-b5-#5-2 1-b5-#5-3 1-b5-#5-b7
1-b5-b7-2 1-b5-b7-3 1-b5-b7-#5

1-#5-2-3 1-#5-2-b5 1-#5-2-b7
1-#5-3-2 1-#5-3-b5 1-#5-3-b7
1-#5-b5-2 1-#5-b5-3 1-#5-b5-b7
1-#5-b7-2 1-#5-b7-3 1-#5-b7-b5

1-b7-2-3 1-b7-3-b5 1-b7-3-#5
1-b7-3-3 1-b7-3-b5 1-b7-3-#5
1-b7-b5-2 1-b7-b5-3 1-b7-b5-#5
1-b7-#5-2 1-b7-#5-3 1-b7-#5-b5
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Re: Chord substitutions

Postby MokshaIs » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:39 am

brilliant! Thanks for taking the time to write this out.
"space is the place"
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Re: Chord substitutions

Postby NateComp » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:50 pm

No prob!

As a guitar player, I love the 4-note voicing stuff becuase I can use a single fingering so many different ways. If I have a voicing like (low to high) F#-C-E-B, played on the 4 thinnest strings, I can sub all kinds of bass notes to get multiple PMGs and more. This voicing with C on the bottom gives me a C maj 7 #11 sound, the same voicing with a D bass note is now D 13, with an Ab bass note it's Ab 7 #5 #9, etc. I can play through so many progressions with just a handful of voicings as long as I know WHAT the relationship of the intervals in the chord are to the Root being played. I think that's the one thing that the LCC really solidified in my "view" of the fretboard. Interval knowledge is one thing, but really HEARING a voicing in so many different contexts has changed everything about the way I play, write, improvise etc. I know what a chord will sound like before I even play it, and even better, if I'm writing and have an idea in my head as far as harmony, I can get to the chord sound I want without even thinking about it - I hear it first and then it's just there. THAT, to me, is priceless.

Here's another thing to think about:

Like anyone else, I studied a LOT of other things before finding the LCC. I studied lots of chord reharm stuff, all different kinds of substitutions, Modal Interchange methods, all that crazy crap. When I go back and revisit so many of those methods, I find that they're ALL part of the LCC. Whether it's tritone subs, extra ii-V's, whatever. The cool part is that now I can use that rediculous amount of voicing ideas I wrote out last time, and use them in EVERY context, and never lose sight of the underlying harmony. In a way it's actually simplified things for me, which is amazing when I consider the amount of NEW chord ideas I'm using that, before the LCC, I would have had a hard time explaining lol.
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Re: Chord substitutions

Postby MokshaIs » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:59 am

Thanks again for sharing. So, would it be accurate to state that, in general, one can substitute a chord for any other as long as the two are vertically aligned?
"space is the place"
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Re: Chord substitutions

Postby NateComp » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:24 am

"So, would it be accurate to state that, in general, one can substitute a chord for any other as long as the two are vertically aligned?"

Absolutely.

When a single voicing can be interpreted as so many different PMG's (and we haven't even touched on AMG, CMG, etc - a whole different ball of wax lol) then they all become synonyms of each other.

The really cool (and I think most insightful part) comes from mapping out a bunch of these kinds of changes using the "close to distant" chart and looking at how various progressions relate to each other as far as Lydian Tonics. I think Motherlode put it best with his analogy of the Lydian Tonics in a progression "hanging like bulbs on an Xmas tree" (or something like that).

Examples:
The C Lyd voicing I mentioned last time (F#-C-E-B)

Lets move around the "close to distant" chart and build some other voicings:

G Lyd voicing (moving in the direction of 1#): G-C#-F#-B

D Lyd voicing (moving another #): G#-D-F#-C#

Now, how do we:
#1, label each voicing? (What PMG do we want to associate each chord with?)
#2, arrange the voicings into an actual progression?

Also, what if we want to use a voicing to function as MORE than one PMG of the current Lydian tonic?

Here's an easy but cool interpretation:

G Lyd voicing: G-C#-F#-B - use this as an A13 CHORD (PMG II)

C Lyd voicing: F#-C-E-B - use this as a D13 CHORD (PMG II)

D Lyd voicing: G#-D-F#-C# - use this as an E13 CHORD (PMG II)

Voila! Chord changes for a typical "Blues in A" but with each chord "vertically" connected to its Lydian Tonic!

NOW, think about this: What other PMG sounds can you get for the C Lyd voicing, the G Lyd voicing, and the D Lyd voicing?

What if we went in the OTHER direction on the "close to distant" chart and threw in this:

F Lyd voicing: F B E A (moving in the direction of 1 FLAT away from our first voicing that came from C Lyd)

Let's take those 4 voicings and start with this:

F Lyd voicing: F B E A - use this as a G13 CHORD (PMG II)

D Lyd voicing: G#-D-F#-C# - use this as an E13 CHORD (PMG II)

G Lyd voicing: G-C#-F#-B - use this as an A13 CHORD (PMG II)

C Lyd voicing: F#-C-E-B - use this as a D13 CHORD (PMG II)

Put it togther as | G13 | E13 | A13 | D13 | and you get a 'typical' turnaround that many people would label as a "I VI II V" using functional harmony, but it's REALLY just a series of II PMG CHORDS from various Lydian Tonics.

Now have fun with it:

F Lyd voicing: F B E A - use this as a G13 CHORD (PMG II)

D Lyd voicing: G#-D-F#-C# - use this as an E13 CHORD (PMG II) AND as a Bb7#5#9 CHORD (PMG +V)

G Lyd voicing: G-C#-F#-B - use this as an A13 CHORD (PMG II) AND as a Eb7#5#9 CHORD (PMG +V)

C Lyd voicing: F#-C-E-B - use this as a D13 CHORD (PMG II) AND as an Ab7#5#9 CHORD (PMG +V)

This gives you the "Tritone Sub" idea but with much more organization:

| G13 | E13 Bb7 alt.| A13 Eb7 alt. |D13 Ab7 alt. |

The Lydian Tonics DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL. The voicings of the chords DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL.

What would happen if these were Lyd Aug voicings? Or Lyd Dim voicings?

Think of how much further you can take this, especially through an entire tune :)
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Re: very interesting

Postby mathmusician » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:04 am

NateComp wrote:The first thing I did with chord subs was to build a 4 note voicing from one scale and then use it in as many "functions" as I could find.

Like, C Maj 7 b5 (as PMG I, voiced low-to-high as C E F# B) can also be D 13 (II), E min 9 #5 (III), F# min 11 b5 (+IV), Ab 7 #5 #9 (+V), A min 13 (VI), B 11 b9 (VII). As a guitarist I'd also mess around with other inversions or voicings of that one basic chord, like F# C E B, etc.

Then I'd go to another scale and do the same thing, so if I went to a Lyd Aug voicing like C E G# B, it can also be D 13 #11 (II), E 7 #5 (III), F# min 11 b5 - with a natural 9 this time (+IV), Ab 7 #5 #9 (+V), A min/Maj 9 (VI), B 13 b9 (VII).

For a Lyd Dim voicing like C Eb G B, it can also be D 13 b9 (II), E min/Maj 9 #5 (III), F# dim add 11 (+IV), Ab 7 #9 (+V), A Dim 7/Maj 9 (VI), B 7 b9 (VII).

THEN, I'd play through a progression using only these voicings. The really cool thing is that #1, each voicing is only one note away from each other so it was easy to get them under my fingers, no matter how I inverted it, and #2, the overall "function" of the voicing could change even though the fingering didn't. Like, I'd play a standard with lots of II-V's (Major as well as minor), and only use a handful of voicings but get some amazing new harmony. Fun stuff :)
mathmusician
 
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Re: Chord substitutions

Postby chespernevins » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:26 am

So mathmusician, are you just quoting something by NateComp from above?

It is great that you brought up this thread again, though. I had an accordion gig this week, so I've been practicing it for many days now. These voicing ideas are a nice way to explore the sounds on the accordion. You can't just do piano stuff on accordion, it doesn't sound right. (Besides the fact that it is also a WIND instrument, not a percussion instrument).
chespernevins
 
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