Questions about chords

Questions and answers on the basic structure of the LCC

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Questions about chords

Postby MokshaIs » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:59 pm

So last night I wrote out the Order of Tonal Gravity starting from C

so...

C G D A E B F# G# Eb Bb F C#
I V II VI III VII #IV #V bIII bVII IV bII

and I started playing chord utilizing this knowledge as well as good ol'
Chart A.


some questions...why does the concept skip the b9 in the harmonic series? is it purely aesthetic?

Also, if I were to do a chord progression starting as outgoing as possible and ending as ingoing as possible, utilizing at twelve tones, what might that look like. I have some ideas. Like last night, I went through Chart A, found the bII, and utilized a C#/Cmaj13...then to the IV, i utilized a F/C dim. (what are the intervals of, say, an Aux. Dim. 13 chord?) for b VII I utilized a Bb/C7b5...so on and so forth. I'd find the corresponding roman numeral on the chart, use that chord, and essentially play a chromatic outgoing to ingoing chord progression. This really blew my mind and of course, there are questions.

In traditional harmony, the III is a minor chord, the IV is a major, so on and so forth...How have those of you more versed in the Concept reconciled the 'rules' of traditional harmony with those of the concept?

Can anyone offer any more insights into utilizing the order of tonal gravity in the formation of chord progressions as well as melodies?

Thanks alot!

~ Jacob
"space is the place"
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Re: Questions about chords

Postby sandywilliams » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:52 pm

[quote="MokshaIs"]


some questions...why does the concept skip the b9 in the harmonic series? is it purely aesthetic?


~ Jacob[/quote]
This is addressed on the bottom of page 16 "The skipping of the...."
More later!
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Re: Questions about chords

Postby sandywilliams » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:44 pm

[quote="MokshaIs"]
Also, if I were to do a chord progression starting as outgoing as possible and ending as ingoing as possible, utilizing at twelve tones, what might that look like. I have some ideas. Like last night, I went through Chart A, found
Can anyone offer any more insights into utilizing the order of tonal gravity in the formation of chord progressions as well as melodies?

Thanks alot!

~ Jacob[/quote]
The Order of Tonal Gravity isn't about creating chord progressions. It's about chord-scale unity. Chord progressions are dealt with in Horizontal Tonal Gravity which uses the full circle of fifths( GR called it the Circle of Close to Distant Relationships) as it's gauge. There isn't a great deal in the new edition about HTG but if you find a copy of the 1959 edition there is a section about it.
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Re: Questions about chords

Postby sandywilliams » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:46 pm

[quote="sandywilliams"][quote="MokshaIs"]


some questions...why does the concept skip the b9 in the harmonic series? is it purely aesthetic?


~ Jacob[/quote]
This is addressed on the bottom of page 16 "The skipping of the...."
More later![/quote]

BTW it would be the skipping of the bII..but we know what you meant.
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Postby chespernevins » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:04 am

In traditional harmony, the III is a minor chord, the IV is a major, so on and so forth...How have those of you more versed in the Concept reconciled the 'rules' of traditional harmony with those of the concept?


Check out Conceptual Modal Genres. The Lydian (Chromatic) scale resolves to the chords built on the Conceptual Modal Tonics - that's how you get traditional harmony concepts.
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Postby chespernevins » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:01 am

So last night I wrote out the Order of Tonal Gravity starting from C

C G D A E B F# G# Eb Bb F C#
I V II VI III VII #IV #V bIII bVII IV bII

...why does the concept skip the b9 in the harmonic series? is it purely aesthetic?


Here's a quote from Sandy a while back, and it's the best reason for the WOTG.

[quote]"The WOTG is really about ‘passive unity’ with vertical structures, the ‘basic chord catagories’ and PMGs. You can experience this yourself by playing the examples starting on page 23. “The skipping of the interval of a fifth between the seventh and eighth tones of the Lydian Chromatic Scale allows the five basic chord categories of Western harmony to be assimilated by its Nine-Tone Order, Semi-Ingoing Level, in the logical order of their development in Western harmony and the Lydian Chromatic Scale.â€
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~

Postby MokshaIs » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:16 pm

very cool ideas
"space is the place"
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Postby dogbite » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:07 am

chesper,

how many times have we all looked at this (circle of fifths, WOTG) and yet still we find something of value...

i know you've posted this before (or something like it) but now it seems like a new perspective...

i really think that with these kinds of visual and conceptual tools, the language may be simplified, or more precisely, amplified...

either way, i'm going to take a close look at this.

peas
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~?~

Postby MokshaIs » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:23 am

How has studying the concept refined your knowledge and application of chord substitutions?
"space is the place"
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Postby DroneDaily » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:41 pm

I'm starting to get confused so please forgive me if I'm a little off...

If the LCC is not for creating chord progressions (as sandywilliams said) but for chord-scale unity, then could you determine the chord progression using the theories of traditional harmony? Or, use another theory for the chord progression and then use the LCC to find the scale that fits the chords?

Does this mean that i can use the LCC to improvise (better) over a twelve-tone piece? Does this mean i could create a chord progression using traditional harmony, eastern harmony, or (you know i have to put this one in here) Paul Hindemith's theories and then use the LCC to improvise most effectively over the chord progression which was determined using other rules?

Please help clear this up, any and all thoughts are welcome and i hope what i have said is relevant.
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Postby strachs » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:37 pm

I enjoyed this perspective and approach when you first shared it over a year ago.

chespernevins wrote:
"The Lydian scale is a ladder of 6 5ths (7 notes total) because C is the tonic of the 6 5ths stacked upon it. C is no longer the tonic of the interval it makes with the 7th fifth (the tonic of the two tones C and Db is Db)."


Questions:

Why is C the tonic of the 7th tone, but not of the 8th? What MAKES the 7th tone the limit of reach?

How does C# "give strength" to the G?

If F supports C, doesn't C# also support C, being the interval tonic of a M7 with C, just as F is interval tonic of a P5 with C?

Nice to see you forging ahead with your concepts, and sharing them.
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Postby dogbite » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:13 pm

strachs,

if C is the tonic of each of its lydian scale components:

C G D A E B F#

through the ladder of fiths, then

Db is the tonic of its lydian scale components:

Db Ab Eb Bb F C G

therefore, the C is not the tonic of C# (the eighth tone) because Db is the tonic of its lydian scale's sixth tone, C...

dronedaily,

actually LCC is about creating chord progressions as well:

in regards to the key of F:

F-----C-----G-----D-----A-----E-----B
Bb---F-----C-----G-----D-----A-----E
Eb---Bb----F-----C-----G-----D-----A
Ab---Eb---Bb----F-----C-----G-----D
Db---Ab---Eb---Bb----F-----C-----G
Gb---Db---Ab---Eb---Bb----F-----C
B----Gb---Db---Ab---Eb---Bb----F

think of the lowest tone in each vertical stack as the tonic of a major (lydian) chord. note also the tonic F is a component of each of the lydian scales B, Gb, Db, Ab, Eb, and Bb; therefore, the chords associated with these lydian scales resolve to the chords associated with F lydian.

this is one aspect of the law of resolving tendencies. book 2 stuff, so i may be talking through my hat here...

i think this is what ben was trying to tell me once :)
Last edited by dogbite on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sandywilliams » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:09 pm

[quote="DroneDaily"]I'm starting to get confused so please forgive me if I'm a little off...

If the LCC is not for creating chord progressions (as sandywilliams said) but for chord-scale unity, then could you determine the chord progression using the theories of traditional harmony? Or, use another theory for the chord progression and then use the LCC to find the scale that fits the chords?

Does this mean that i can use the LCC to improvise (better) over a twelve-tone piece? Does this mean i could create a chord progression using traditional harmony, eastern harmony, or (you know i have to put this one in here) Paul Hindemith's theories and then use the LCC to improvise most effectively over the chord progression which was determined using other rules?

Please help clear this up, any and all thoughts are welcome and i hope what i have said is relevant.[/quote]
The LCC is great for creating chord progressions. I was trying point out the Western Order of Tonal Gravity(see page 17 of the book) isn't about chord progressions but rather unity with a given chord.
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Postby chespernevins » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:40 am

Why is C the tonic of the 7th tone, but not of the 8th? What MAKES the 7th tone the limit of reach?


As Dogbite says, the ladder of 7th fifths is limited to 7 fifths through the idea of interval tonics.

Each tone in the ladder has as "a tonic" the note a 5th below it, because the tonic of an interval of a 5th is the lower tone.

At the same time, each tone, when seen as an interval with the lowest note of the ladder of fifths, has as its tonic this lowest tone in the ladder.

Example:

F#
B
E <-
A <-
D
G
C <-

If we take the tone E and compare it to the note below it in the ladder, A, we see that E and A form an interval of a fifth. The interval of a fifth has as a tonic the lower tone, A.

If we take the tone E and compare it to C, the lowest tone in the ladder, we find that the tonic of the major 3rd C and E is the lower of the two notes, C.

Next example:

C# <-
F# <-
B
E
A
D
G
C x

If we take the note C#, we find that the tonic of F# and C# is F#.

But if we look at the interval of C and C#, we find that the lowest tone on the ladder, C, is NOT the tonic of this interval. Just the opposite - C# is the tonic of the C# and C interval.

That's why the ladder is 7 notes high, and not 8 or more.

How does C# "give strength" to the G?


On page 3 of the modern book, G. Russell refers to an order of six fifths as representing a "Tonal Gravity Field". So I hallucinated that I could take the ladder of six fifths as an actual entity with a magnetic force.

Then it made sense to introduce each of the remaining 5 chromatic notes in the chromatic scale to this “magnetic fieldâ€
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Postby strachs » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:38 pm

Very, very interesting take.

If we introduce C# to the ladder of fifths built on C, it actually creates another ladder of fifths on G. This is how adding C# "gives strength to the G" – by making G the tonic of its own ladder of fifths.


Could this logic also be applied to the Ab you mentioned? Call it G# instead, and wouldn't that similarly create a ladder of fifths based on D?

Just wondering if you see this logic as applying both ways.
Last edited by strachs on Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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