Relatively new to the concet

Questions and answers on the basic structure of the LCC

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Relatively new to the concet

Postby MokshaIs » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:34 pm

Just this past summer I was introduced to the concept at a music camp. What a gift. Since then, I've been studying volume 4, and, i guess, just had a few questions for you more seasoned Lydian Chromatic Cats.

What would you say is the best way to utilize Chart A? I mean, i get it to a degree. You have a chord, you find it above its intervallic numeral in the right column and voi la, you now know your parent LC scale... right?

I was also wondering what some of you might suggest a beginner do to get the concept more internalized and what not. I've been going through tunes and assigning every chord a parent LC scale and such. Is there anything you guys would recommend? I'm really fascinated with this stuff and am very surprised its not more well known. I feel like I've been given a secret key that opens a cosmic door...woot!
Anyway, just looking for some guidance and advice. Thanks you

~
"space is the place"
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Postby sandywilliams » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:29 pm

Sounds like you are on it. Are you doing the exercises in the book?
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Postby chespernevins » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:01 pm

Hi Mokshals,

Here are some quick suggestions:

You could learn the Lydian 9 tone order scales inside and out (Lyd, LA, LD).

Example exercises:

1) learn all the triads in a given lydian scale, in all inversions:

In C Lyd, play root positions: C E G D F# A E G B F# A C, etc., and back down.

first inversions: E G C, F# A D, etc.

2nd inversion: G C E, A D F#, etc.

(Notice how many intervallic relationships you cover)

2) mix up the inversions, and link them differently:

C E G | F# A D | C F# A
D F# A | G B E | D G B
etc.

3) Learn stacked 4ths:

C F# B, D G C, E A D.

4) Learn "sus like chord shapes":

C F# G B | D G A C | E A B D | etc.

There are a million more patterns.

Do these patterns for C Lyd, C Lyd Aug and C Lyd Dim especially.

Try to mix the patterns for each scale type at will.

Try melodies where you mix the three scales liberally: C D D# E F# G G# A B. Try subsets of this like the Augmented scale: C D# E G G# B

To me, the 10 tone orders and above have to be handled carefully to still hear the home key. 9 TO gives so much color and is still hearable in relation to the home key.
---------------

Try pentatonics derived from C Lyd, such as C Pent, D Pent, and G Pent.

--------
Then try the scales over each of their chords, and notice how the vertical ones work and how the horizontal ones work.

Learn the Lydian, Lyd Aug and Lyd Dim scales in relation to each of their modal tonics:
(Chart A)

C Lyd over C Maj7. C Lyd over D7. C Lyd over F#min7b5. C Lyd over A-7. C Lyd over B7susb9.

C LA over C+Maj7, D7+11, F#min7b5, A-Maj7
C LD over C dim Maj7, D7b9, A-7b5, B7

Try the following triads to create voicings over modal tonics:

C Maj triad. A min triad. C Aug triad. C dim, triad.

--------------

Learn the Lydian scale over the Conceptual Modal TOnics.

For example, play C Lyd over a III- triad or a V Maj triad. Realize that this is horizontal, and the lydian scale will resolve to these two triads. Try C Lyd over a II triad and a VII triad. These are trickier to tell when they are vertical and when they are horizontal.

Try Lyd Aug and Lyd Dim over their III, V, II and VII triads and see if you think they behave in a horizontal manner.

--------------

Then you could learn the 10 - 12 tone orders.

---------------


Learn all the horiztonal scales and experiment with them over different chords and progressions.

The 1950's book is a good source of info on usage of horiztonal melodies.
--------------

Advanced: Learn about all the intervals and how they can be arranged in tonal gravity from ingoing to outgoing.


Chesper Nevins
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Thank you!

Postby MokshaIs » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:55 pm

Thanks for that great reply. To the post above the above, yes, I've been going through the exercises. It's getting alot easier to identify parent LC scales and PMGs. I am still a little fuzzy on understanding III and V chords in regard to the Lydian scales. I suppose it is simple to conceptualize then as I maj 7 / III in bass or V in bass. Aren't these essentially (if C is the tonic) E minor and G maj?

Any way, thanks much.

~ Jacob
"space is the place"
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Postby chespernevins » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:50 am

When you relate C Lyd to the chord C/E (III in the bass), you have a vertical relationship.

If you relate C Lyd to an E minor triad, you have a Horizontal relationship. (Play this on the piano and you hear that the C wants to resolve).

An E minor triad's vertical parent scale is G Lydian. Notice that C Lyd has a C Natural where G Lyd has a C#, and the C is the note that has tension and needs to resolve over E min.

Also notice that C Lyd is flat lying as compared to G Lydian. So you have a chord from G Lydian (Emin) with a flat lying Lydian scale played over it (C Lyd), creating a Horizontal sounding melody.

Read about Conceptual Modal Genres in the book for more info.

Hope that makes sense - I am running on no sleep at the moment!
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endless questions...

Postby MokshaIs » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:53 am

here's one. So if I'm reading a chart, and the progression goes Ebmaj7, F-7, G-7, what would be the LCC conceptualization? Would i consider each chords parent LC scale, as in Eb Lydian for the Eb chord, Ab Lydian for the F-, and Bb lydian for the G-? Before being introduce to the concept I would of thought, well, were in Eb. In the above case, is Eb to be treated as the V of Ab?
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Re: endless questions...

Postby sandywilliams » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:41 am

[quote="MokshaIs"]here's one. So if I'm reading a chart, and the progression goes Ebmaj7, F-7, G-7, what would be the LCC conceptualization? Would i consider each chords parent LC scale, as in Eb Lydian for the Eb chord, Ab Lydian for the F-, and Bb lydian for the G-? Before being introduce to the concept I would of thought, well, were in Eb. In the above case, is Eb to be treated as the V of Ab?[/quote]
Yes to the first part...vertically. Yes to the last sentence...horizontally.You can treat each chord as a separate vertical entity or deal with the chords in horizontal manner by using an Eb major scale for all of them. Neither option is 'best' and they may be used simultaneously!
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Postby chespernevins » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:28 pm

Your vertical analysis is one correct analysis. You could play Eb Lydian over Eb maj7, Ab Lyd over the F-, etc.

On the other hand, if you played an Eb Major melody over this progression, you would be playing a horizontal melody over three vertical chord areas.

Here's a third approach to this analysis, however:

| Eb maj7 | F- | G- | F- | Eb maj7 | = | AbVh | Ab VI | AbVIIh | AbVI | AbVh |

Notice that you can find labels like "AbVh" under the Alternate and Conceptual Modal Tonic Degrees column on Chart A.

AbVh is a Conceptual Modal Genre, which means an Ab Lydian scale is being "forced" into being sounded at the same time as an Eb Major Triad. The Eb Major triad is not really consonant with the Ab Lydian scale. The dissonance of Ab Lydian against the Eb Chord makes for tension and release (the note Ab resolves to G), creating a Horizontal melody.

The Ab Lydian scale by itself doesn't have much tension and release built into it. But if you build triads on scale degrees V, III, II or VII, then the Lydian scale sounds different juxtaposed against those triads.

The Lydian scale resolves to those triads built on the Conceptual Modal Tonic degrees. (Ab Lydian resolves to an Eb major triad, and also to a G- triad in this example).

In the progression above, does it sound like Eb is the starting point, then moves to a unresolved place with the F-, then resolves from F- to G-, then moves to an unresolved state with the F-, and then resolves from F- back to Eb Maj? If so, then you are hearing the Lydian scale resolving to triads built on its CMT Degrees.

One reason the Ab Lydian scale sounds like it resolves to an Eb major triad is that the Eb Major triad simulates a key that is in a sharp direction from Ab. In the LCC, Lydian scales moving in a sharp direction naturally sound like a resolution.

Anyway, try playing that progression and playing an Ab Lydian melody over it. You'll find you have to be careful of areas of tension and release, which is typical of melodies that are acting as horizontal melodies.

Check out p.116 in the book. There are other places in the book that mention this stuff too.
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