Another Observation

Questions and answers on the basic structure of the LCC

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Another Observation

Postby strachs » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:12 pm

It seems that since the new tones intruduced by the 8- 9- 10- and 11-tone orders are a fifth apart,
(just like the first seven tones of the LC Scale), one can use the most outgoing note of a given order,
change to a new LC scale in the sharp direction, and continue to use that note as the most
outgoing note of a more ingoing scale. (Disclaimer: I am aware that there is, according to George
no 8-tone order, but let's use the terminology here for clarity of comparison)

For example, starting with F LC scale, 11-tone order, one can use the Bb note as an outgoing
melody note. If you then change gears to a C LC scale, the Bb is now the most outgoing note of
a 10-tone order.

The pattern continues, and I have seen this in use when alternating between the LA scale (8-tone)
and LD scale (9-tone). For example, in Oscar Peterson's "A Gentle Waltz", the parent LC scale for
much of the peice is F LC. Ab is the most outgoing tone of F LD scale. Ab (or G#) is also the
most outgoing tone of C LA (parent scale in sharp direction from F).

Just an observation. I may be stating the obvious to some, but I see from my past posts that
these little brain farts are good for sparking thought and dialogue on the subject ... which is
a good thing, I think.
Last edited by strachs on Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby strachs » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:58 pm

Another brain fart: Can someone please tell me what the practical difference is between the LA scale and the Lb7 scale in practical terms?

F Lb7 and Eb LA, for example, contain exactly the same notes. On what basis, then, do we conclude that they are different?

For example, notice that the exact same chords are possible in both scales, but on different degrees (forgive my formatting):

Chord

F7
G7
Am7b5
Bm7b5
Cm+7
Dm7
Eb+7

MG in F Lb7
I
II
III
+IV
V
VI
-VII

MG in Eb LA
II
III
+IV
+V
VI
VII
I
(I know that -VII is technically not a qualified modal genre, since it is considered too "outgoing" to maintain it's relationship with the lydian tonic, but just for comparison....)

It seems like the more outgoing the tonal order, the less of a clear relationship it has with it's lydian tonic,
and the more overlap it has with an otherwise distant LC scale, or tonal centre.

Two LC scales a tritone apart, for example (the furthest two keys can get in the circle of fifths) share their 7-tone order's most ingoing and most outgoing note (Eg, F and B).
One of these Lydian scale's other five notes is the other LC scale's outgoing tones introduced by the outer tonal orders.

I hope that the "tonal gravity chart" (pg137) that is to come in Volume II (when, oh when is it coming?).

It should shed some light on the subtle relationships that the tones have with a given LC scale, and that the LC scales have to one another.
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Postby dogbite » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:05 pm

strachs:

"Another brain fart: Can someone please tell me what the practical difference is between the LA scale and the Lb7 scale in practical terms?

F Lb7 and Eb LA, for example, contain exactly the same notes. On what basis, then, do we conclude that they are different?"

dogbite:

in terms of traditional theory, they are modes of each other, therefore the fingerings are identical; however, i think the difference lies in the context of the prevailing lydian tonic. F lydian b7 and Eb lydian augmented may have the same tones, but are encountered under a different tonal environment. same with aux dim and aux dim blues, but remember that the main thrust of the concept is tonal gravity, not merely the pitch inventories of the member scales. think of F lydian b7 as originating from the house of the F lydian chromatic scale and Eb lyd aug as from the house of Eb...

db
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Postby sandywilliams » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:38 pm

The Lydian b7 has such a strong tonical quality, probably owing to its close relationship to the overtone series.
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Postby strachs » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:01 am

Thanks dogbite. As I study deeper, I am coming to see that the Concept offers way more insight than to offer us "pitch inventories", as you put it. Context is important in determining the parent lydian scale, the modal genre, and the level of tonal gravity involved. There are also grey areas that can be regarded in different ways, without an absolute, irrefutable interpretation.

I can see that having two pincipal scales, that essentially are modes of each other, does allow for two different treatments of the modal genres, and can therefore lead to some ambiguity when analyzing music having certain chord types. Again, the context should be drawn upon to try and percieve what underlying LC scales appear to be in use.
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