Chart A discrepancies.

Questions and answers on the basic structure of the LCC

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Postby Bob » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:07 pm

And in the left side 'brain' i shows up as a VII, but practise and in the various analyses it's described as a II. Maybe a VII if preceded by a #IV,e.g., ii7b5 Vb9. I don't thinks the answer is clear in the book.
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Postby dogbite » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:27 pm

"And in the left side 'brain' i shows up as a VII, but practise and in the various analyses it's described as a II. Maybe a VII if preceded by a #IV,e.g., ii7b5 Vb9. I don't thinks the answer is clear in the book."

the VII chord mode is titled specifically "Major VIIB/Eleventh b9" on the left side of Chart A. we know that Major VIIB refers to a major chord with the seventh in the bass, but what is the nature of the Eleventh b9 chord? perhaps the answer is in the unique construction of the Eleventh b9 chord itself:

C11b9

F
Db
Bb
C

that the essence of the chord C11b9 is that of a Bb minor triad (Db lydian) with a C bass [i remember reading this somewhere, but cannot remember where] rather than that of a C7b9 chord:

Db
Bb
G
E
C

thoughts anyone???

Db
Last edited by dogbite on Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bob » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:41 pm

It occurs to me that when I'm playing bass, I tend to use LD II more often than not.
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Postby dogbite » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:52 am

compare the following situations:

1) D7b9

played as C°/D

Eb
C
F#
D

C° = C Lyd Dim

C°/D = II chordmode C lyd dim

2) D11b9

played as Cm/D

G
Eb
C
D

Cm = Eb Lyd

Cm/D = VII chordmode Eb lyd

3) Dm7

played as F/D

A
F
C
D

F = F Lyd

F/D = VI chordmode F lyd

***

the concept treats diminished chords as I chordmode, so the C°=C Lydian Diminished makes sense for C°/D as D7b9...

***

am i being useful here???

Db
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Postby Bob » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:23 am

the concept treats diminished chords as I chordmode, so the C°=C Lydian Diminished makes sense for C°/D as D7b9...

There's no question that this makes sense. It's just odd that Chart A treats the PMG of V7b9 as VII, lists (II) as an alternate parent scale, then consistently analyses Vb9 as if LD II were the PMG without any further ado. In defense of 7b9 LYD VII, it's not unusual to express the chord with a phrygian mode. Similarly, m7b5 PMG = +IV, but can be played as a LD VI. The distinctions among PMGs, AMTs, and CMGs gets a bit clouded, but provides grist for the dialectical mill. A simplified practise of Chart A might focus on I II & VI.

(oddly, I don't get animated pop-ups on AAJ, (my Mac generally blocks them) though at times the forum (which has gotten a bit dull) won't load all day.)[/i]
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Postby chespernevins » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:01 pm

Something that I like in Db's post is the (appearance of the) usage of the 4 triads:

I Maj, VI Min, I Diminished, I Augmented

superimposed over bass notes to form chords. (Is that what you are doing Db?)

I seem to remember George doing this.

Dogbite, if your post was meant to justify II in preference over VII or something similar, I think I lost you on that point. :?:

The reason I mentioned VII7b9 as being a sus chord in a previous post was because, given ONLY the LYDIAN scale, out of the triads above, we only have the I Major and VI Minor to use for superimposition purposes (Co and C+ coming from the 9 tone order scales).

So for B7b9 (as a VII chord of CLYD), we can choose:

C Maj / B

OR

A min / B

The A min / B is the one I chose, giving:

C
A
E
B

I then added an F# to flesh it out a little giving:

C
A
F#
E
B

Anyway, that's where I got my VII7b9 voicing.

Dogbite, I feel like you may have had an additional point, but it escaped me... would love to hear more. (I'm still on pain meds ... I very well may be missing something obvious!!) :shock:
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7b9

Postby Bob » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:50 pm

For say a C7b9, has anyone mentioned the ever popular C ALT aka E LA #5 aka Db melodic minor VII?
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Postby dogbite » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:56 pm

chespernevins:

Something that I like in Db's post is the (appearance of the) usage of the 4 triads:

I Maj, VI Min, I Diminished, I Augmented

superimposed over bass notes to form chords. (Is that what you are doing Db?)

I seem to remember George doing this.

Dogbite, if your post was meant to justify II in preference over VII or something similar, I think I lost you on that point...

dogbite:

1) both the 1959 LCC and the newly released fourth edition seem to imply that the initial choice for PMG of the 7b9 chord is II chordmode: seventh and altered seventh chords [see Test A page 65 and the answer on page 246]; however, if you look at the sub-principal chords for VII chordmode, there it is: 7b9 chords...

2) i really wish there was a more definitive answer for this, other than that seventh chords can be II, +V or VII chordmode - they are all listed as primary or alternate modal tonics for seventh, seventh+5, and eleventhb9 chords...

3) the logic of the common progressions Bm7b5[+IV] E7b9[VII] (both F lydian tonic) as opposed to Bm7[VI] E7[II] (both D lydian tonic) is inescapable, so i decided to figure out the best way to voice a D7b9 chord as a triad and came up with:

Eb[b9]
C[b7]
F#[3]
D[1]

and noticed the C° triad, so i ran with it...

Bob:

For say a C7b9, has anyone mentioned the ever popular C ALT aka E LA #5 aka Db melodic minor VII?

dogbite:

i really think that GR meant the +V chordmode to be primarily applied to seventh chords with augmented fifths, but it is listed as an alternate modal tonic - see point #2) above...

dog
Last edited by dogbite on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby chespernevins » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:50 am

Yes, Db, I follow everything you are saying and have no better answers.

To somewhat summarize, it is interesting that you had to go to C LYD DIM to make this chord, once again pointing out that a 7b9 chord is not possible on the II in the 7 tone order scale. And of course the 7b9 is not literally possible on the VII degree of the 7 tone order scale either, with the minor 3 of the chord present instead of the major third, unless you massage it by making it a sus chord or leaving out the 3rd for whatever reason.

We all probably agree that given these two choices of II or VII, the II makes a more satisfying 7th chord.

So we keep the II MG the preferred chord family of the 7th when we move to the 9 tone order scale - even though we can now form a literal 7b9 on both the II and the VII.

It seems like there may be a reason for listing the 11b9 category in a secondary position to the I Maj/VIIb designation. THis category makes for a slippery 11b9 chord that seems to change from minor to major when moving into the 9 tone order scale.
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Postby Bob » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:02 pm

Bob:

For say a C7b9, has anyone mentioned the ever popular C ALT aka E LA #5 aka Db melodic minor VII?

dogbite:

i really think that GR meant the +V chordmode to be primarily applied to seventh chords with augmented fifths, but it is listed as an alternate modal tonic - see point #2) above...

the ALT makes as much sense as the ADB. a primary thrust of this and the B7b9 thread is what GR means vis-a-vis the 7b9. If it were clear, there would be no thread.
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Postby dogbite » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:36 pm

Bob:

the ALT makes as much sense as the ADB. a primary thrust of this and the B7b9 thread is what GR means vis-a-vis the 7b9. If it were clear, there would be no thread.

dogbite:

you mean that if it were clearer in the text that we would not be having this interesting conversation?

see also page 77 and notice that the B°7 is assigned a +V chordmode, even though the text clearly indicates that diminished chords fall into the I chordmode...

here are some observations i've made about the C7b9 chord:

C7b9

chord tones C E G Bb Db

traditional interpretation might be:

C7b9 as V of F harmonic minor scale

C Db E F G Ab Bb C

extra tones

F and Ab

[11 and b13(#5) of C7b9]

***

C7b9 as II chordmode - Bb lydian

Bb C D E F G A Bb

Db is not present, so we go to:

Bb lydian diminished

Bb C Db E F G A Bb

extra tones

F and A

[11 and 13(6) of C7b9]

***

C7b9 as VII chordmode - Db lydian

Db Eb F G Ab Bb C Db

E is not present, so we go to:

Db lydian diminished

Db Eb Fb G Ab Bb C Db

extra tones

Eb and Ab

[#9 and b13(#5) of C7b9]

***

C7b9 as +V chordmode - E lydian

E F# G# A# B C# D# E

C and G are not present, so we go to:

E auxiliary diminished

E F# G A A# B# C# D# E

extra tones

F#, A, and D#

[#11(b5), 13(6), and #9 of C7b9]

or perhaps

E nine-tone

E F# G G# A# B B# C# D# E

lots of extra tones here...

i am not trying to point out that the decision is reduced to whether or not the extensions #9, 11, b5, #5, or 13 are considered as more or less acceptable to the C7b9 chord - just making comparisons...

will the real 7b9 chordmode please stand up?

Db
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Postby Bob » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:57 pm

you mean that if it were clearer in the text that we would not be having this interesting conversation?


Exactly, and I'd be over at "A Closer Read" talking to myself. The 7b9 is an interesting and uncharacteristic blind spot.

I have no quibble with anything in your latest post. However, I would like to propose an official scale or Pitch Collection for the C7b9. Hang on to your shorts: C E G Bb Db. Even I can remember it.
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Postby chespernevins » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:20 pm

What exactly is the 11b9 chord?
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Postby dogbite » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:39 am

chespernevins:

"What exactly is the 11b9 chord?"

dogbite:

"now that's a very good question, major!" - ernest borgnine to lee marvin, "the dirty dozen"...

you got me on that one, chesperado. but let's go for the obvious here:

that a B11b9 has a B in it (duh)

and an E (11)

and a C (b9)

which, by the way, are the three essential elements from a Cmaj7 chord (C lydian, anyone?)

i'd say a good bet is that the b7, A, is expected also, so:

E
C
A
B

which is what i, and others, posted earlier, but in the 1959 LCC on page vi of the "Theoretical Foundation" section, it is shown as:

B
G
E
C
A
B

so there's the b13 (G) also...

look at "green dolphin street"

Cmaj7 Cm7 D7/C Dbmaj7/C Cmaj7

or

C Eb/C D/C Db/C C

i think that the Db/C

F
Db
Ab
C

is a good example of the C11b9 sound

it has 1, b13, 11, and b9, just like the example given in the 1959 LCC...

i like also the resolution

D
A
F
B
E

E11b9 provides going to Am (here the 11b9 has a fifth)

so using all of these examples, let's say that some possible voicings for 11b9 on C include:

Bbm/C, Db/C, Gm7b5/C

which are all chords derived from Db lydian, so let's include Eb7/C also:

Dbmaj7/C Bbm7/C Gm7b5/C Eb7/C

there you have it - clear as mud once again!

paz, amigos

mordedura de perro
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Postby chespernevins » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:36 pm

This post may be redundant. I am hoping it'll add a little clarity to the thread...? I think thinking it through has been good for my own clarity anyway.

Thanks for reiterating all of that Db. Very good descriptions.

I think I was in the ballpark by calling the VII chord a susb9. It's one option.

But I've realized some distinctions here that strachs and Db and many others of you seem to (I think) already be comfortable with.

That is mainly, what a completely different beast the 11b9 chord is than the 7b9. I guess it's a common practice thing.

To go along with Dogbite's "brain of the concept" idea, nowhere on the LEFT side of chart A does the VII catgory list the 7b9.

The danger is there that one might lump the 7b9 in with the "Major VIIb/Eleventh b9" category, thinking that the 11b9 is just stacking more thirds up from the modal tonic, through and including the (minor?) 7th chord and (minor?) 7thb9 chord.

But if we accept an 11b9 chord that mainly leaves out the third up from the modal tonic in the sound of the chord, then we get a beautiful chord that is very different from a 7b9 and is much more like a Lydian I chord over VII (duh, as listed in the heading "Major VIIb/Eleventh b9).

With this train of thought, the chords on the right side of chart A, under The Principal Scales -> Lydian Scale Chordmodes -> VII should perhaps be primarily 11thb9, 11thb9+5, and maybe susb9 instead of 7thb9. SO I am agreeing with strachs's question that I don't fully understand the specific designation of 7b9 here.

P.S.
I went to The Jazz Theory book by Mark Levine (ok, sorry, too much CST) out of curiosity on what he had on the 11b9, which he calls the susb9 chord. There really are some nice musical examples cited starting on p.48
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