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Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:50 am
by lil-works
Hi everybody,
In Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5. I don't understand why is named minor +5 a chord witch is more a minorb6. And what is the interest to concidering this tone has a #5 if it contain a 5?

Where am I wrong?

cheers

Re: Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:22 pm
by lil-works
Thanks. But your response confuse me more
The (-7#5) resides on (VI) of the AuxDim.


on VI of the auxdim I can see Dim min chords in the Chart A not a -7#5?

Re: Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:26 pm
by gvetsch
It is a little confusing using both the 5 and #5 in this chord.
Voiced down from the top note C in close position it's a Cmaj7
which makes more sense, though he names it from the bass(E)
An inversion of modal tonic 1 chords !! (from the 59 edition)

Re: Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 4:02 am
by matoi
I haven't explored the use of this chord much yet, but now it occurs to me that the backing machine I use for practice doesn't even offer it. But since it does support slash chords I'm going to try a C sus4 / A... It should be the same thing. Perhpas it would be ok to think of this chord as a Vsus4 / III in the Lydian universe...?

ML, could you please explain a bit more what you meant by stressing the importance of this chord? Is it interchangeable with the rest of Lydian chords in the same way, or is it special/different in some way?

Thanks, and all the best,
m

Re: Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 5:24 am
by matoi
Later edit:

Only now I've included this chord in my 'chart' which shows the order of birth for different chords according to Russells Order of Tonal Gravity:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzznNGq7LJzCNG9VSGtTeGdieFE/edit?usp=sharing

and come to realize certain things... When you start stacking fifths above a Tonic, as soon as you've included 4 fifths above it, you've got the material to build a m7+5 chord (on the III degree with regards to the starting Tonic / LC Scale). Actually it's the first of 'common' chords that can be built on that degree. Also, of note is that the m7+5 is 'given birth' by the order of tonal gravity at the same moment (when you've included the fourth fifth above the Tonic) as the m7 chord (though this twin-sister/brother - m7 has it's root on the VIth degree). You need yet one more fifth above the Tonic to be able to construct a m, m7, 7sus4 or sus4 on the IIIrd degree. Maybe that explains why it makes sense to relate the III degree to m7+5 chord sooner than to some other chords. Also, it perhaps shows that m+5 is not some kind of a artificial intruder, but one of primary chords of equall dignity as Maj or m7. What a silly omission to have been ignoring this chord... A withdraw my earlier proposition to call this chord Vsus4 / III, it deserves to be used and called princpially as m+5 just like the man said.

Re: Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:10 pm
by lil-works
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. It's very very interesting.
Can you tell me how you find your 144 intervals. Is something do do with the pythagorean tuning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning?
And how you find de 15 aux dim scale intervals. Is this
Unison, b2, 2, b3 , 3, 4 ,#4 ,b5 (same as #4), 5, #5 , b6 (same as #5), 6 ,b7, 7 ,octave
?

Re: Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:20 pm
by matoi
Thanks, I love your thought 'hooks'! But I need one clarification:

motherlode wrote:The (-7#5) resides on (VI) of the AuxDim.


AuxDim should be: I II bIII IV +IV +V VI VII
So, and F AuxDim: F G Ab Bb B C# D E
I don't see how a -7#5 can sit on it's VI degree,
as it would need to be composed as: D F A#/Bb C
so we are missing the C (V) in the AuxDim...

Or have I misunderstood something?

Thanks!
m

Re: Lydian mode IIIB/minor+5

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:14 am
by NateComp
I've been a fan of the Minor 7 #5 sound for years, probably from listening to so much Steely Dan growing up ;)

Matoi nailed it when he said "When you start stacking fifths above a Tonic, as soon as you've included 4 fifths above it, you've got the material to build a m7+5 chord (on the III degree)"

Motherlode REALLY nailed it with "realize that the MELODY is infinitely more important than the chord"

I used to view this chord family as a 'rarity' (more of an 'altered minor' than anything), but with LCC I came to embrace it as a HUGELY important color, and one of my favorite tools to use harmonically. I did a reharm of the Beatles' "Yesterday" a while back using a bunch of Min 7 #5 sounds, and it's amazing - mostly because the melody is so strong, but also because the flavor of this particular chord is so harmonically flexible. Certainly an avenue worth persuing if you haven't already!