"Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Discussions on the theoretical basis of the LCC

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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:55 am

ML,

It's great to have you back and posting again! My water heater broke so I had to stay home today and I am squeezing in some time to catch up with your thoughts here.

It can be said that the five melody notes (taken alone) in m.5 must be from E Lydian in their most ingoing interpretation (based on tonal gravity).

We could say that the A7 chord is a flat lying harmony from G Lydian (Augmented) (as compared to the sharp lying melody in E). Then the F Aug chord is more flat lying and could come from F Lydian Aug or perhaps Eb Lydian b7 (or of course, a +V chord from A Lydian, which I'll get to later).

I'm not sure where you're getting E Lydian AUGMENTED from (since there is not explicitly a C found), except from maybe free associating from G Lydian Augmented and F Lydian Augmented in general?

I think what I really tend to think about this measure when sitting at the piano (and maybe just because it's convenient) is that it is all in A Lydian.

It's an A lydian melody, with an A Lydian b7 bluesy color on the first chord. Then the F Aug is a +V chord and the G# and F# in the melody works well because they anticipate the F Aug (altered) chord.

When we get into this bitonal realm, with sharp lying keys over flat lying keys or 10 tone order chromatics in one key, it seems like there can be multiple valid interpretations.

I also realize that I would need to know this tune and various recordings of it a lot better to really form a better opinion.

Can you clarify what you mean about a special case of Lydian Augmented creating a Maj 7 over a dom 7 chord? (Actually, let me limit that question a little: I assume you mean Lydian + Lydian Augmented over a +V7 chord?)
Last edited by chespernevins on Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:10 am

There is another similar case...the case of the maj 3rd against the minor chord. I won't address it here, but what it amounts to is that ANY NOTE can be played any where...for the sake of beauty.


Would love to hear more on this. George Russell once said that Miles was one of the few people who could use a Maj 3 over a Min chord. This was a long time ago. I immediately thought that a Bb Blues scale could be played over a C min II chord, so it didn't seem like that big a deal. But at the same time, I knew I really didn't know what he was referring to...
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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:05 pm

How do I know it's melodic minor? First, it's the importance of the g# to the idea. In C#min, g# is followed by an 'a', a (1/2) step, making 'a' the tonic of the interval g#-a. But if g# were to be followed by a whole step it would make g# the tonic of the interval giving it more authority.
This is exactly the case with the melodic minor (ex.B).


Hmm, ok, I think I see what you're getting at. So G#-A would suggest A Lydian if anything and the minor second interval lessens the importance of the G# compared to the A, wheras G#-A# implies E Lydian and the interval of a major second emphasizes the G# over the A#. You hear G# as a very defining note so you go with the interpretation that creates G# as a central strong tone.

But this still gives us E Lydian and we're not at E Lydian Augmented yet.

So I'm making another leap and thinking that - by similar logic - G#-B gives the authority to B wheras G#-C gives the authority to G# again, and of course, this gives us E Lyd Aug.

Am I getting closer to what you're thinking?
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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:42 am

Hey ML,

Your example is really great on Eclipse. I played around with this logic on the piano and it makes a lot of sense to the ear.

We're talking about making a personal interpretation that includes an awareness of bi-tonality, tonal gravity and interval tonics. This is stuff you/we have been talking about for a while now.

I have always liked B Major and E Major over G Lydian, (I think of it as a Paul Bley sound) but tonal gravity and interval tonics bring extra definition to understanding the sound of the G# in this context.

It just reinforces in my mind that we don't really know the lcc at all if we just know the scales. We have to be conversant with - not just intellectually aware of - the intervals of tonal gravity.

I gotta run right now, but I'll get back to you with more.
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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:18 am

Hey ML,

I saw your tonal gravity chart earlier. Maybe that could be its own thread?

Have you worked with triads in tonal gravity much?
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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:33 am

Motherlode,

This is off topic too. I'm looking for a tune for harmonica with a New Orleans feel with an intellectual bent on top. Would you have any ideas?

CN
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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:44 pm

ML,

That is, of course, an excellent suggestion. I will use that.

I'd love to hear your other thought as well, as I need to work up a multi song repertoire.

Thanks a lot for the time you spent putting up the sound clips.
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Re: "Eclipse"/ Lydian Augmented

Postby chespernevins » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:22 am

Oh man, to hear Diz and Louis's rhythmic conception next to each other is breathtaking. I'll try this on for size.

Also,
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/11/ ... a-man.html
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