Harmonic Minor

Discussions on the theoretical basis of the LCC

Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams

Postby dds1234 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:53 pm

strachs wrote:In this interview http://www.robertappleton.com/gr_interview1960.pdf posted by bobappleton in another thread, Russell says something to the effect that it doesn't matter ( to the music itself and to the listener) whether the musician is relating to the music horizontally or vertically. It only matters to the musician, and the music itself will not (if it's done with sufficient artistry) reveal the musician's thinking on this.

Maybe (to answer my own question, I guess) it doesn't matter which of the LC scales you THINK you're relating to. It only matters to YOU, and therefore there is no one "correct" way of relating to the two chords of a cadence.

Probably that's about the size of it.



I am quite positive this scanned from the second edition of the concept.

I adore the way this ends, I laughed so hard when I read it!
-So-so true!!

What a great interview.
dds1234
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:54 am

Postby Jeff Brent » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:39 pm

The harmonic minor is very briefly addressed in the LCC book as the Lydian b3 Scale [b6th mode of the harmonic minor] and as the Lydian Dim b7 Scale [4th mode of the harmonic minor].

Do you need the page numbers?
Jeff Brent
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:13 pm
Location: L.A.

Postby sandywilliams » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:59 pm

Please and thanks.
sandywilliams
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm

Postby bobappleton » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:04 am

dds1234 wrote:
strachs wrote:In this interview http://www.robertappleton.com/gr_interview1960.pdf posted by bobappleton in another thread, Russell says something to the effect that it doesn't matter ( to the music itself and to the listener) whether the musician is relating to the music horizontally or vertically. It only matters to the musician, and the music itself will not (if it's done with sufficient artistry) reveal the musician's thinking on this. Maybe (to answer my own question, I guess) it doesn't matter which of the LC scales you THINK you're relating to. It only matters to YOU, and therefore there is no one "correct" way of relating to the two chords of a cadence. Probably that's about the size of it.
I am quite positive this scanned from the second edition of the concept. I adore the way this ends, I laughed so hard when I read it!
-So-so true!! What a great interview.


yes it's from the 1964 edition. when i read the jazz times interview, i was maybe 14. and one of the main things i saw was a signpost on how to "get experienced"... the circus, a job, a band. they all seemed preferable to more school. i'm really grateful for the lessons i learned from this article. who'd a thot that george's class and the lenox school could have reached so far for so long.
bobappleton
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:57 pm

Postby strachs » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:55 am

Jeff: could you provide the page numbers. I can't help thinking you mean the Lydian Diminished scale (has a lowered third).

Lydian Diminished: F G Ab(or G#) B C D E
not quite the same as
Mode of Harmonic Minor: F G# A B C D E
but very close

(only difference being that one has the G natural and the other has the A natural).
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby chespernevins » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:01 pm

take a look at p. 148
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Postby strachs » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:57 am

Good find.

This is very useful for me.... I'm enjoying analyzing Bach Inventions by identifying Lydian Tonics.

Thanks to all who replied to this thread. It has helped me see there are several ways to view the "perfect cadence" of Classical-era minor-key music through LCC-lenses.

If you are treating the final minor tonic station as VI of a horizontal scale,
you can treat it's "dominant" chord as III of the horizontal "Major Augmented Fifth" scale.

Or, if you are treating that minor tonic station as IIIh, a Conceptual Modal Genre of an otherwise vertical scale, you can treat the "dominant" as mode VII of either Lydian Diminished, or Lydian b3 (or better yet, call it Lydian #2).

So many Bach passages that are difficult or impossible to "explain" using traditional classical theory are a snap with LCC! Tones beyond the seven-tone order are no longer considered "exceptions to the rules" that only a genius can employ. What an encouragement to experiment with these tones, rather than avoid them!
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby strachs » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:29 pm

The two-part Inventions.

There is an interesting part in number 13 that has always intrigued me (measures 14 to 17).

The exact chords can be interpreted several ways, because the arpeggio sequences in both hands do not define an irrefutable root. Analyzing the harmony with chord names, you may end up with something like:

Bar 14 A7b9
Bar 15 G9, G7b9
Bar 16 F#m7b5b9, F#dim7
Bar 17 E7b9.

The problem is:
A. are these even the proper names for the "chords" in question?
B. how do you account for the presence of the non-scale degrees?
C. is there any reason that one should lead or "resolve" to the next?

Analyzing the harmony in LCC-terms, to me, yeilds more interesting and insightful results.

In this piece, I found it easy to identify the LC scale and tonal order for each measure, but not so easy to identify the modal genre, since the downbeats are moving around in thirds, and the thing seems to "morph" rather seamlessly between different MG's.

The majority of the invention has F as it's tonal centre (F LCS). Applying the "Lydian #2" scale to the main theme's V-i resolution works well (FL#2 VII-III).

As Russell has pointed out, Bach seems to have exploited the 9-tone order in many circumstances, and measures 14-17 is just such an example.

My interpretation of these measures is:

Bar 14 Bb 9-tone (MG VII)
Bar 15 F 9-tone (MG II)
Bar 16 C 9-tone (MG +IV)
Bar 17 F 9-tone (MG VII)

The one exception that does not fit neatly into this scheme is the C# in measure 16 - but this note is on a very weak beat, and does not contribute to the passage's overall tonal colour. It's just part of a descending fifth that Bach uses to anchor the last beat of these measures into the downbeat of the next.

I listed the tonal order rather than a specific scale, because, those specifics depend on what other LCS degrees are present at the moment (the Lydian 2nd or 3rd will determine whether Lydian Diminished or Lydian #2 is your scale, but both represent the 9-tone order).

As for the modal genre ... perhaps you may offer another view. To my musical senses, the note on the fourth downbeat of each of these measures seems to supply a satisfactory root, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, regardless of what modal genres are seen to be expressed here, knowing about tonal orders beyond the 7-note barrier offers an insight into music that is difficult or impossible to analyze successfully using traditional music theory and concepts. With LCC, you can at least see the overall movement of tonal centres, and account for the presence of non-scale tones; even understanding their relationship to one another and to the peice as a whole. To me, that's way cool.
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby strachs » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:20 pm

Thanks for doing that!

I had never thought to try playing the passage against the Lydian Tonics, as you demonstrated in example C.

It's amazing how that two-voice counterpoint style enabled Bach to use the 9-tone order without making it sound thick and "clustery" if you will. Your example B employs much the same notes as Bach used, but sounds harsher when the notes are played at once.

On another note: the A minor tonic station chords can also be regarded as MG VI of the C LCS. This allows us to see that much of the material (especially this passage) progresses along the lines of most horizontal music: From a lydian tonic in the flat direction to a lydian tonic one or two steps in a sharp direction. This four-measure passage starts with a lydian tonic (Bb) two steps in the flat direction from the final lydian tonic (C). It then moves to lydian tonic F, then C, then F, then resolves (measure 18) to C again.

This is exactly what I find so amazing about analyzing Baroque and Classical music using the Concept. Even when the music seems to be going into more complicated territory than V-I, and is getting very complicated to understand according to traditional rules/principles, the underlying tonal gravity is usually flowing along in much the same manner as in the simpler sections. It's like the lydian tonic was always felt even when it was not understood.

Motherlode: you seem to have done some analysis of this music yourself. Could your share your insights that the Concept has given you?
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby chespernevins » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:07 pm

This is wonderful stuff.

The only place I differ with you Strachs is that on beat 1 of measure 3, it really seems like C I to me, as opposed to C #IV, and I’m giving beat 4 an A LT. I see that D# and C# as coming from assigning an A Lyd tonic to the 4th beat. (A LYD II ). This could have been B7b9 if we kept the C Lyd tonic (C LYD DIM VII).

I see your point about the notes on beat 4 seeming like a modal tonic, but it seems to me that meas. 3 does not follow quite the same pattern as 1,2 and 4.

I got into looking at each of the diminished triads in the measure, even though they are contained within the same parent scale like this:

m.1 | E dim Bb dim C# dim A7b6 | = Bb LYD / Bb LYD DIM
m.2 | D min Ab dim B dim G7 | = F LYD / F LYD DIM
m.3 | C maj F# dim A dim B79 | = C LYD / C LYD DIM / A LYD
m.4 | B dim F dim Ab dim E7b6 | = F LYD DIM

I think defining each diminished chord like this gives shape to the harmonies and accounts for the building feel of suspense throughout each measure.

My “jazz chartâ€
Last edited by chespernevins on Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Postby sandywilliams » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:22 pm

Reminds me..if you look at the Bach Violin Sonatas and Partitas you’ll find more ii-V7’s than a Jamey Aebersold book!
sandywilliams
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm

Postby chespernevins » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:30 am

ML,

Thanks for facilitating this discussion so nicely. Your tools have elevated the level of discussion and that is everything!

Thanks,

C
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Postby strachs » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:39 pm

Mutha: The work that you put into these posts shows an admirable respect for other people's ideas. Very cool, I must say.

I do like that idea of playing sustained chords under a passage. Could you expand a bit on "hidden sonorities"?

Also, I could not get that MP3 download to work for chesper's chords. Anyone else having that problem?


CHesper: Your interpretation of those harmonies is very good. Mine was a little stuck on the idea of one chord to represent the entire measure, but of course that led to an exception in the third bar. Your analysis addresses this by allowing for more frequent change of Lydian Tonic.

Also, your modal tonic interpretation works, too. Playing your chords under the melody makes it sound completely different, without conflicting at all with the notes Bach penned. Sooooo interesting.

This kind of dialogue is cool indeed. Thanks all for getting involved in the post.
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby chespernevins » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:27 pm

Sandy gave the example earlier:

There is an analogy between G7(Modal Genre II, F LT)to C ( Modal Genre I ,C LT) and E7 (Modal Genre VII, F LT) to Ami (Modal Genre VI, C LT).


The latter half of this seems to fit if we want to look at the resolving tendencies of measure I going to measure II.

But if we are talking about horizontal movement, I would say it this way (transposed to Bach’s key):

A7 (Modal Genre VII, Bb LT) to Dmi (Conceptual Modal Genre III, Bb LT).
Last edited by chespernevins on Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Postby chespernevins » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:28 pm

Also, I could not get that MP3 download to work for chesper's chords. Anyone else having that problem?


It worked for me.
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

PreviousNext

Return to Lydiocy (LCC Theory Discussion)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest