Harmonic Minor

Discussions on the theoretical basis of the LCC

Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams

Postby sandywilliams » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:58 pm

It's bar three of the version on Portrait in Jazz.
sandywilliams
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm

Postby sandywilliams » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:38 am

That’s it. Thank you! The exact three chords start at 12 seconds. I have ‘jazzheimers’ and had remembered the changes in the wrong key in my initial post about this. The key is Ab. The chord in question is a Dmin7b5. Over this chord he plays Fmimaj7, Gmi7b5, Abmaj7#5. The following change is a Db7 over which Bill plays Abmi/maj7, Bbm7, Cbmaj7#5.
The Fmimaj7, Gmi7b5, Abmaj7#5 are really interesting. Nowdays people would automatically plug in the F melodic minor( Ab LA to us) over a Dmin7b5. Why would Evans choose the chords/harmonized scale he did? For one thing there is a momentary ‘rub’ between the bass playing D natural and the D flat note in the Gmi7b5. Maybe he liked rubs like that. It is possible that these chords were used because with the exception to the E natural note, the chords are more aligned with the overall horizontal scale of the piece, Ab major. So, you could look at it as F harmonic minor or Ab major#5.
Now I have something new to experiment with over mi7b5 passages.
(The changes in the old Real Book don’t match this version but the changes in one of Chuck Sher’s New Real Books nail it)
sandywilliams
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm

Postby strachs » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:39 pm

Further evidence that horizontal scales are NOT a different phenomenon than the 11-tone vertical order: Page 233; "The eleven tone order brings the fourth degree into the LC Scale. This is necessary in order to allow the four traditionally important horizontal scales to be formed on the Lydian Tonic, where they serve as member scales of the LC Scale."
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby strachs » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:40 am

Another reference to same effect: page 131: "Bar nine shows Miles verticalizing the A min7 chord with an F major scale melody derived from the eleven-tone order of the F LC Scale."

Rather than supposing we are "imposing" a horizontal scale over an otherwise vertical structure, maybe we should just call the Major Scale an 11TO scale, noting that it possesses the horizontal forces or tendencies.
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby sandywilliams » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:29 pm

[quote="strachs"]

Rather than supposing we are "imposing" a horizontal scale over an otherwise vertical structure, maybe we should just call the Major Scale an 11TO scale, noting that it possesses the horizontal forces or tendencies.[/quote]
In a vertical situation that is exactly what it is.
sandywilliams
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm

Postby strachs » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:59 pm

I couldn't resist adding another quote from the book that again illustrates how subjective the whole vertical vs horizontal thing is. On page 251, he says: “each Gravity Centering Element is given the authority to designate its associate level as the Prevailing Level of Tonal Gravity when activated by the focus of the musician.â€
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby sandywilliams » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:24 pm

Sometimes they( the horizontal and vertical elements) are pretty clear cut. For instance, the melody of Stella By Starlight is entirely within one major scale except for one note and the harmony for the song still takes an interesting journey. A blues can be reharmonized to a great degree but still accommodate a blues scale quite nicely.
The Concept leaves many choices at the discretion of the composer, improviser, or even listener so in that way it could be describe as having subjective elements.
By the way, it is a ‘concept’. Pat Martino has a 'concept 'that involves converting everything to minor. Mick Goodrick’s comments about the LCC in his Advancing Guitarist book put it nicely into perspectiveâ€
sandywilliams
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:17 pm

Postby strachs » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:02 am

Sounds like a pretty balanced approach. Just as composers through the centuries each had their own personal approach and theories that they usually did not share with others, each of us will ultimately come up with our own way of describing the principles and concepts that science and art have uncovered to varying degrees. Maybe we'll never map out a concrete theory whose every detail can be universally agreed upon. That's not necessarily a bad thing.....

In any case, by sharing with us his personal insights into equal temperament, Russell certainly opened our eyes to a much broader view and approach to all music.
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Postby strachs » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:48 pm

We sometimes find ourselves speaking of a "horizontal situation" or a "vertical situation". I'm not sure they are mutually exclusive.

The subject of CMGs (in my understanding - feel free to ask me why) demonstrates that Horizontal and Vertical Tonal Gravity are in effect at the same time. The focus of the musician determines which will have greater authority over what notes are chosen to be sounded. One or the other will be chosen to be exploited, the musician deciding whether to focus more on the vertical coloring in the moment, or to yield to resolving tendencies.

A comparison, is that when learning the “church modesâ€
strachs
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Previous

Return to Lydiocy (LCC Theory Discussion)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest