Official Scale for use in Blues

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Official Scale for use in Blues

Postby strachs » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:37 pm

I tried an interesting thing.

Three of the principal scales (LA, LD, and LFS) are constructed by altering one of the lydian scale degrees. The new (more out-going note) DISPLACES the "natural" version of that note. LA, for example adds the raised fifth to the lydian scale, but the perfect fifth is removed to make room for it, leaving us agian with a seven-note scale. For the remaining three scales (AA, AD, ADB) , better-known scales that contain progressively more outgoing intervals are used to represent those tonal orders.

I tried creating an "official" scale to represent the bII tone (the most out-going tone in the LC scale) in the same manner as the above mentioned scales. This would give me a seven-note scale that expresses the bII tone.

I then mapped out the various "modes" of this official, 12-tone-order scale. The results were as follows (each line represents a mode of the scale):

1 b2 3 #4 5 6 7
1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 7
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 bb7
1 b2 b3 4 b5 bb6 b7
1 2 3 4 b5 6 7
1 2 b3 b4 5 6 b7
1 b2 bb3 4 5 b6 b7

You may notice that the 6th mode of the scale has a "b4" tone - an unacceptable degree name in traditional thinking. However, the note it represents is actually just a major third above the root. If we consider it this way, that mode of this particular outgoing tonal order scale contains notes that are traditionally used in blues improvisation.

This was very enlightening for me, because, previously, I was thinking of the blues scale as a sort of "pentatonic with some added colour". Now I have a way of relating to these notes as a mode of a very understandable LC-based scale.

I no longer have to approach the co-existence of the minor-third and major-third as a kind of "grace-note" colouring or syncopation tool. They are both valid members of an outgoing scale, and can both be used as melodic material.

I have long heard the use of both these tones in jazz in a more intelligent way than the cheap "beginners blues" kind of hammering both at the same time or in a "grace" note sort of way. Now I have a means of understanding their coexistence in blues/jazz melodies.

Cool. Thx George.
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Postby chespernevins » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:25 am

1 2 b3 b4 5 6 b7


Hi strachs,

Great experiment! Interesting stuff.

If I read you correctly, the 6th mode here would be spelled:

A B C C# E F# G

This was very enlightening for me, because, previously, I was thinking of the blues scale as a sort of "pentatonic with some added colour". Now I have a way of relating to these notes as a mode of a very understandable LC-based scale.


Is there some reason why this scale is more meaningful to you than the Horizontal Member Scale "The African American Blues Scale" for this particular combination of notes?

C
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Postby strachs » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:54 am

chespernevins:

Not really "more meaningful" than the horizontal scale, no. The horzontal scale spelled on pg 18 of the book seemed to contain more notes than I am used to seeing in relation to blues music.

It seems like a combination of two scales that I am more used to seeing. Actually the two scales I am used to are modes of the same scale.

The major mode of the scale is just a pentatonic scale (C D E G A, or I, II, III, V, VI), with an added chromatic note (Eb, or bIII). It's minor mode, if you will, would also be a penatonic (A C D E G, or I, bIII, IV, V, bVII) with a chromatic note (Eb, or bV).

The African American Blues scale presented in the book, is a combination of all these notes.

So, no, the scale I discovered is not really more "meaningful" than that one, but is a more stripped-down scale, and a closer approximation of ONE of the blues scales I have always been familiar with. The Concept simply enabled me to think of the "chromatic note" as a possible vertical colour alongside the major third, rather than a kind of "passing note".

This seems to agree with the usage of these notes that I have heard by some composers (Miles davis, for example). They always seem to be able to trancend the over-simplified usage of these notes that one can fall prey to if he/she only learns these scales from a scale "dictionary" type of book, with no real theoritical understanding of the notes.
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Extended CMGs and the Blues

Postby chespernevins » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:29 am

Hey strachs,

This idea of the 12 tone order scale giving us a blues type scale is interesting.

I’m imagining this:

I’m playing around in the Ab lydian chromatic universe.

Playing chords like Dmin7b5 (+IV), G7b9 (VII), C7+5 (III), Fmin (VI), Bb7 (II), Ab maj (I), E7+5 (+V)…etc….

Maybe I’m playing the Ab 9 tone order scale on top (vertically to each chord) for the melody:

Ab Bb B C D Eb E F G

(But I could play the 7 tone scale too, with slight alterations depending on the vertical chord of the moment:

Ab Bb C D Eb F G)

Then I decide to add the b2 to the scale:

Ab A Bb B C D Eb E F G (BTW, Compare this with George’s African American Blues scale)

(Or I could just make the second degree flat, like you did:

Ab A C D Eb F G)

A is a pretty out note so I use it melodically mostly as a passing tone.

But this A natural allows me to build an F major triad on the VI chord, and a D minor triad on the +IV.

This F Maj (and throw in D min) chord is a sharp lying triad (F maj triad being most closely associated with F LYD and F LYD being sharp lying to Ab Lydian).

This sharp lying triad, F maj, can act as a tonic station to which any chord in the Ab Lydian Universe can resolve.

Any of the progressions below could be seen as Ab lydian resolving to an F Maj tonic station chord. (Dare I say a CMG VIh major chord)??? Play the scales listed above for a source of melody.

| Bb7 | F |
| D min7b5 | F |
| D min7 b5 | G7 b9 | F |
| F min7 | Bb7 | F |
| G sus7b9 | C+7 | F |
| Bb7 | B dim (Ab LD I / III ) | F |
| E7 +5 | F |
etc....

What is a CMG anyway?

From looking at the 4 CMGs listed in book I:

A CMG consists of the same set of pitches as its parent lydian scale.

A major or minor triad must be able to be constructed on the Conceptual Modal Tonic.

This major or minor triad must suggest a I maj or VI minor chord of a SHARP lying lydian key in relation to the parent lydian scale.

The Conceptual Modal Genre must have the characteristics of a horizontal mode in its state of resolving to the tonic station triad built on the Conceptual Modal Tonic.

Unknown - Must the CMG have BOTH a I maj and VI min tonic station available for the CMG to resolve to? BUT in this case, there is both a I maj and VI min tonic station.

Thoughts????? Are the meds getting to me? I'm counting on you guys to slap me down if I'm getting crazy!!!
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Postby dogbite » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:50 am

chespernevins:

"Unknown - Must the CMG have BOTH a I maj and VI min tonic station available for the CMG to resolve to? BUT in this case, there is both a I maj and VI min tonic station."

dogbite:

the I maj and VI min are "relative major and minor" from traditional music theory, so it seems to me that one implies the other; however, in the harmonic minor scale, the V chord doesn't have the accompanying relative minor, but does this have anything whatsoever to do with what you're talking about?

of course the CMGs are described in terms of the LYDIAN scale, so yeah, you can probably scratch that last comment...

chespernevins:

"Thoughts????? Are the meds getting to me? I'm counting on you guys to slap me down if I'm getting crazy!!!"

dogbite:

you seem to be as rational as any of us. whether or not this is a good thing, time will tell, but in the meantime, we'll be sure to keep an eye on you :)

Db
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Postby strachs » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:46 pm

chespernevins:

Cool observation - the A in that 12-tone order scale implying the F LC scale. Gives a fairly close sharp-direction key to resolve to, doesn't it.

It's always interesting how many different results can be obtained by looking at things in a new way. I'll never go back (to my pre-LCC awareness, or lack of).
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Postby chespernevins » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:49 pm

of course the CMGs are described in terms of the LYDIAN scale, so yeah, you can probably scratch that last comment...


Point well taken.

Could we name these other horizontal scales that fully comply with these requirements of a CMG (as I theorized above) but that are not technically CMGs?

For instance the very nice horizontal scale Majorb6b7 (or Mixolydian b6):

C D E F G Ab Bb

as resolves to a C major triad and derived from the Ab LA scale.

Perhaps this is simply called a horizontal official scale?
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Postby chespernevins » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:51 pm

It's always interesting how many different results can be obtained by looking at things in a new way. I'll never go back (to my pre-LCC awareness, or lack of).


Yeah!
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Postby dogbite » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:24 pm

chespernevins:

"Could we name these other horizontal scales that fully comply with these requirements of a CMG (as I theorized above) but that are not technically CMGs?

For instance the very nice horizontal scale Majorb6b7 (or Mixolydian b6):

C D E F G Ab Bb

as resolves to a C major triad and derived from the Ab LA scale.

Perhaps this is simply called a horizontal official scale?"

dogbite:

i've always liked this idea but consider this:

the Ab lydian scale already has a CMG defined through the concept as Cm (IIIh) - wouldn't the C major triad from the Ab lydian augmented scale provide the means to resolve to C major, through the Ab lydian chromatic scale already?

i guess what i'm saying is that perhaps the example you are using has already been provided through the the lydian chromatic scale, in this case, Ab...

db
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Postby chespernevins » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:27 am

wouldn't the C major triad from the Ab lydian augmented scale provide the means to resolve to C major, through the Ab lydian chromatic scale already?


I would ask: What C major triad?

Without the idea of a tonic station triad built on the "Conceptual Modal Tonic III of the Lydian Augmented scale" (sic) we don't have a C Major triad, only an Augmented chord with IIIb.

In other words, there is no "IIIh" listed as an "Alternate and(or) Conceptual Modal Tonic Degree" next to I Major/Altered Major on Chart A.

I'm not sure I fully understand your stance on this. It seems like on the one hand, you are saying that CMGs belong only to the 7 tone order scale, but on the other hand, you mention a C Major triad from the Lydian Chromatic scale. Am I misinterpreting you?
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Postby dogbite » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:22 pm

chespernevins:

"I would ask: What C major triad?

Without the idea of a tonic station triad built on the "Conceptual Modal Tonic III of the Lydian Augmented scale" (sic) we don't have a C Major triad, only an Augmented chord with IIIb.

In other words, there is no "IIIh" listed as an "Alternate and(or) Conceptual Modal Tonic Degree" next to I Major/Altered Major on Chart A.

I'm not sure I fully understand your stance on this. It seems like on the one hand, you are saying that CMGs belong only to the 7 tone order scale, but on the other hand, you mention a C Major triad from the Lydian Chromatic scale. Am I misinterpreting you?"

dogbite:

no, you're not misinterpreting me - i'm just full of poo...

i was just thinking that since there is a C minor triad (IIIh) listed as a CMG within the Ab lydian scale, that it may not be too much of a stretch to break out the C major triad from the Ab lydian augmented member scale...

db
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Postby chespernevins » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:41 am

no, you're not misinterpreting me - i'm just full of poo...


Hee hee, nawwwww……… :lol:


i was just thinking that since there is a C minor triad (IIIh) listed as a CMG within the Ab lydian scale, that it may not be too much of a stretch to break out the C major triad from the Ab lydian augmented member scale...


It seems like you’re just doing spontaneously what I was suggesting doing formally, which is to add IIIh to the I PMG as a CMG (sic – once again, because there is no hint that George uses the term CMG for anything other than the LYDIAN 7-tone-order scale degrees V III II VII and sometimes I and VI that I am aware of).

I could then add the “majorb6b7â€
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Postby chespernevins » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:00 am

chespernevins:

"Unknown - Must the CMG have BOTH a I maj and VI min tonic station available for the CMG to resolve to? BUT in this case, there is both a I maj and VI min tonic station."

dogbite:

the I maj and VI min are "relative major and minor" from traditional music theory, so it seems to me that one implies the other; however, in the harmonic minor scale, the V chord doesn't have the accompanying relative minor, but does this have anything whatsoever to do with what you're talking about?


Db, you said:
...the V chord doesn't have the accompanying relative minor


I assume that was a typo and you meant the VI chord, right?

That's exactly what I meant. In our example of the Majorb6b7 scale, we don't have a relative minor chord either.

Notice that George says "the FOUR Horizontal scales of a LC Scale" on pp. 17-19, instead of "the EIGHT".

All of his horizontal scales can be resolved to I maj or VI minor. I don't know if that is a requirement of a CMG or just a result of the 7 tone order scale being symmetrical enough to have it coincidentally turn out that way.
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Postby dogbite » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:34 pm

Hi Chesper, we’re back from vacation and I just looked at your response to my last comment in our dialogue re: HTG…

I think that we are agreeing with each other while at the same time, are coming dangerously close to talking past each other. Let me clarify the statement in question to see whether or not I am full of poo:

Quote/chespernevins:

"Unknown - Must the CMG have BOTH a I maj and VI min tonic station available for the CMG to resolve to? BUT in this case, there is both a I maj and VI min tonic station."

Quote/dogbite:

“the I maj and VI min are "relative major and minor" from traditional music theory, so it seems to me that one implies the other; however, in the harmonic minor scale, the V chord doesn't have the accompanying relative minor, but does this have anything whatsoever to do with what you're talking about?â€
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Postby strachs » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:24 am

Hey Dogbite:

In response to your point about member scales being used in HTG via CMG's: I recently added a post ("Thoughts on Horizontal Vertical Gravity, CMG’s, And Duality") summarizing my current grasp of CMG's, and it's actually quite related to this point, I think.

In my understanding, CMG's do not draw upon the resources of the member scales, but are limited to the 7-tone order scale, the Lydian scale. When we begin using member scales, we are no longer treating the modal genre as a horizontal one, but as a vertical one.

Four of the modes (V, II, III, VII) have this "duality". Kind of a split-personality. The second paragraph of pg 210, and the surrounding paragraphs, express the differences between PMG's with their vertical usage, and CMG's with their horizontal usage. This portion of the book also explains the subtle, but definite difference between the duality of these four MG's and the I and VI MG's.

Anyway, those modal genres, therefore, cannot loose their "relative" through member scale usage, since only the tonal resources of their seven-tone scale are available. By introducing more outgoing resources, the modal genre ceases to be a conceptual one, but is rather, behaving in it's PMG personality. (think of "dual-state" modes as being schizophrenic).[/u]
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