A Closer Read

Discussions on the theoretical basis of the LCC

Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams

A Closer Read

Postby Bob » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:12 pm

So starting with the foreword,

Try to "visualize" the relationships presented in this book by "hearing" its knowledge with an inner ear that is capable of formulating your own singular musical ideas through the experience of an internal focus. This focal point can help you decipher between the superficial, mechanical associations you may be accustomed to making in your compositions or improvisations and the quality of consciousness that allows many levels of subtlety to come into play. (p.x)


Any perspectives on what this means?

...the actuality of a passive do which yields to everything in scale that is higher than itself....


The text references Chapter II. I'm not finding it, unless this means the overall Lydian do. In any event, what does this quote indicate?
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

New to the LCC?

Postby Bob » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:06 am

This might be a good thread for those new to the LCCTO to comment and ask questions. Don't be held back by fearing what you think is a stupid question. That never stopped me, as a review of my posts will clearly reveal. On occasion, those with greater understanding will weigh in and clear things up... worth the risk. Think of it as a 'Socratic' process.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Chapter One

Postby Bob » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:40 am

Chapter I starts by demonstrating that the C major 13 #11 chord, a lydian scale in tertiary order sounds more at rest, or final, than C major 13 with a natural 11, i.e., the major scale. You can hear this whether you play it as stacked 5ths, or 3ds. or as a cluster (all tones in one octave). This is the case, because when you stack 6 Perfect fifths on a tonic C, you arrive at the Lydian scale C G D A E B F#, whereas the major scale with its F natural, sounds like it has a need to resolve. Resolve in fact, to the C Lydian Scale. Starting from F# and sounding the 5th downward affords one the immediate experience of 'tonal gravity.' Thus the "nature of the Lydian Scale Octave is defined as "A unified tonal gravity field in which gravitational energy is passed down a ladder of fifths to its lowermost tone: the Lydian Tonic."
Therefore, the Lydian Scale becomes the key to the harmonic resources of the chromatic scale - The Lydian do the absolute fundamental tonic.
Comments? Clarifications? Questions? Criticisms?
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby Bob » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:44 am

With your kind indulgence, I'll continue this monologue because it gets me to read the LCC from the beginning again, in the hopes of clearing up my own understanding.

In Ch. 1 example 1:9, GR attributes the Lydian tonic as the tonic of all the intervals in the Lydian scale by virtue of in structure in relation to the cycle of fifths. Although the tonic of the m3 M6 is at variance with theorist such as Hindemith, who using the whole overtone series, those theorists allow that the tonic of the free standing m3 is ambiguous, and it.s determination becomes a practical matter. Thus, as a practical matter, and consistent with the LCC, GR's scheme of interval tonics is credible and consistent with the contrast with the major scale and its natural fourth.

This topic was covered in a previous thread that apparently did not survive the reconstitution of the forum.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby Bob » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:57 am

Ch 2 and still thinking out loud. From another thread:

n jazz practice chords are extended in thirds up to a 13th.
For a fully extended C major triad, the most stable sound is the C major 13 (#11).
Put these notes in one octave, and you've got a C Lydian scale.
Hmm.
Stack those perfect 5ths, CGDAEBF#, put those notes in octave, and you've got a C Lydian scale.
Hmmm.
The Lydian scale produces the basic chords used in jazz. [As does the major scale, but...]

Let's see, the next most common source of jazz chords is the melodic minor. If I skip the next P5th (Db), I've got an A melodic minor, but I can't line these chords up with the major scale, I'd have to raise the root. If I reckon from the C Lydian I can line up these chords with their "siblings" and I've got an augmented Lydian scale.
I only have to remember to raise the G to a G#. Starting to look like a palette.

Up another fifth to Eb. Substituting the Eb for the E in the Lydian, I've got a Lydian diminished scale, and the siblings are still lined up.

The next fifth is Bb. B down to Bb in that Lydian, and there's the Lydian dominant scale.

The notes that are change (altered) are also a fifth apart.

The scale names should be consistent to make the matrix easier to memorize and consistent with the first column and the triad on I. How about Lydian, Lydian Augmented, Lydian Diminished, and Lydian Flat Seven.(that last one is nice because it recognizes the use of I7 as the I chord of the blues


To continue, the next scale, AUX.AUG or whole tone scale includes all three 'substitutions' so is a bit further out, i.e.,
I II III #IV #V bVII

The AUX.DIM moving up the cycle introduces the natural IV in combination with bIII #IV and #V for the WH diminished scale.

The AUX.DIM.BLUES adds the last 5th bII , along with bIII #IV and bVII, giving us the HW diminished scale. We have our seven principle scales and the Lydian Chromatic Scale is complete.

Note from Sandy's post on strach's thread the symmetrical divisions:
LYD divides the LCS by 2, LA by 3, LD by 4, AA by 6, and of course the chromatic scale by 12.

(This opens a window to consider the LCC concept in the light of Slomoninsky (sp?) Thesaurus of Scales ... another day)

We're now ready for a look at Example 11:3, The Lydian Chromatic Order of Tonal Gravity.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby Bob » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:05 am

Example II:3 The Lydian Chromatic Order of Tonal Gravity.

Here's the mandala that represents the tonal universe and implies all that is to come. And it's available for free off the home page on the LCCTO link.

The cycle represented linearly at the bottom. Reading from bottom to top shows how each tone is introduced, and which scales emerge in close to distant relationship with each other and with the whole. Reading from top to bottom and following the arrows provides a visual experience of tonal gravity 'descending' from the chromatic scale to its inevitable Lydian tonic. One can clearly orient one's self to the relationship of any tone to the center. One can explore one of the levels, e.g., the 9 tone order, as a pitch collection in itself, with subsets etc., at in this case a semi-ingoing tonal gravity level, while knowing where you are, where you can go, and how you can get there.

A personal observation or two.
Albeit, pre-Lydian, the '5-tone order' is the major and relative minor pentatonics. A core of the core? The '6 tone order' is a hexachord that hasn't made up its mind if its major, lydian, or 'dominant.' (See "dominant to what?" in recent threads).

Had I previously read carefully and considered its position in the text (i.e., before 'finding the parent scales), the first full paragraph on p16, would have spared me confusion regarding 'lydian tonics' and Autumn Leaves (discussed in previous threads). To wit, "...tones I and VI are underscored because the represent... the most final sounding of all chords....and my function as tonic stations for chord progressions.

This suggests to me that I would do well, when preparing a tune for improvisation or recomposition, to identify the primary tonic stations, and their immediate cadences, before diving into the chord by chord analysis, substitutions and esoteria. Clearly seeing the target before bending the bow.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby Bob » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:53 pm

Chapter 2 cadences with an exposition of the four horizontal scales, so called because the presence of the 'subdominant' 4th keeps them in a state wanting to resolve, to achieve a state of 'unity' with the I or VI tonic station.

They are also related to the major scale, the horizontal scale supreme. 1 is in fact the major scale. 2. the major scale b7 (so designated, I trust, to note its common practise use in jazz as a stand-alone or I chord (as in the blues). 3. The major augmented fifth scale AKA the bebop major (Please see motherlode's indispensable threads on Lydian meets bebop). 4. The African-American Blues Scale which juxtaposes the common practise blues scale (1 b3 4 b5 5 b7) with the major scale, indicating the availability of blue notes (b3 b5 b7) in nearly any horizontal jazz context.

So 7 principle vertical scales and 4 horizontal scales give the common practise chords a home to leave and return to, all under one roof.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby Bob » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:42 pm

Here's a nice summary of the Concept, in case you've missed it:http://davidvaldez.blogspot.com/2005/08/george-russells-lydian-chromatic.html
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby Bob » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:58 am

Ch 3. Note to self: The way to understand this chapter is by playing on each example, preferably on a nicely tuned grand piano. You can hear the main idea of the chordmode by playing the parent scale with the modal tonic in the bass.
...the chordmode provides a complete frame of reference for exploitation of the chord.


Ex. III:2 is revealing. It's kind of difficult to play voicings, "sub-principle chords" that don't sound well. Voice leading care or "grip" technique (playing what's 'in your hand' works is helpful when creating chordal 'lines.' It's interesting that Russell starts with the "fully evolved" chord/chordmode and then introduces subsets ("sub-principle chords"). In addition to the tertiary voicings, voicings in 2ds, 4ths, mixed voicings sound good expressing the colors of the chord mode in trichords, tetrachords etc. More satisfying (IMO) to me than the 12-tone set theory approach. it's as if the music is suggesting itself. Note that the chapter is about the"eight PMG (primary modal genres) house of music's traditionally defined chords' which should be 'well in ear' when exploring the outer limits.
Chart A encapsulates the information presented in the text thus far.


The chapter's last section (The Principal of Tonal Gravity" p52) wants to be thoroughly digested.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby bobappleton » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:28 pm

Hi Bob


Bob
bobappleton
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:57 pm

Postby Bob » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:45 pm

Hi. Z'up?
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Chapter Four

Postby Bob » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:45 pm

Chapter 4 begins with the famous "River Trip" metaphor that contrast the chord by chord approach of a Coleman Hawkins, the 'horizontal' key oriented approach of Lester Young, the thorough chordal explorations of Coltrane, and the 'Supra-Vertical' (discussed later in the book) of Ornette Coleman.

The River Trip also implies a topic gone into in the '59 edition, that of chord substitution, recently recalled by Sandy Williams. This was exquisitely exemplified in Bill Evans' playing. Evans seemed be able to find infinite harmonic pathways between tonic stations. Even if few of the original chords were there, the sense of the tune is never lost. Evens and/or his brother discussed this on the Marian McPartand show. That must be on the net somewhere, so if someone finds that link....

Relating melody to the parent scale designated by the chord.


As indicated on Chart A, and recently highlighted by dogbite, the Lydian Tonic of a prevailing chordmode is found on one of the chord tones.
I root, II b7, III #5 #IV b5, V 4th, VI b3, VII b9, and #V 3d.

So on Test B, in addition to following the instructions, it's interesting to note the scale degrees of the vertical melodies, circle the chord tones, and note the position of the parent scale's lydian tonic. It is instructive to then compare these results with motherlode's posts on 'lydian meets bebop' practise.

So on this rare weekend of having the house to myself, I'm writing a bass solo comp per Test C.
Last edited by Bob on Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby dogbite » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:05 am

Bob:

"I root, II b7, III #5 #IV b5, V 5th, VI b3, VII b9, and #V 3d."

dogbite:

i am pleased that you remembered my observation about the relationship between chord tones and lydian tonics. it is one of my most useful observations - it really does help me find the lydian tonics of VTG more quickly.

please note that in the quote from your post, you made the same typo found in Chart A: V chordmode - LT = 5th(sic) [LT is actually the 4th]

it is not my intention to correct you here; however, i did paraphrase a statement you made earlier in my last post on dogbite's thread at aaj - i trust you would let me know if i misquoted you. go see and lemme know...

back soon,

dogbite
dogbite
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Postby Bob » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:33 am

You're right, I missed the typo, and I read the previous post. One of the points of this thread is for errors to be corrected. Good eye. Thanks. I'll try to go back and edit.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Practise Idea

Postby Bob » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:43 am

I've found it helpful to prepare a 'lead sheet' with only the Lydian scales and genre (e.g, Ab Lyd VI) and walk through the changes without the chord symbol in front of me, using alterations as I move down the "ladder." (i.e., Chart A). It seems to help internalize the whole thing, and gives a different perspective.
10 {The artist formerly known as Bb}
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Next

Return to Lydiocy (LCC Theory Discussion)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest