Cycle of Doom - one view

Discussions on the theoretical basis of the LCC

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Cycle of Doom - one view

Postby chespernevins » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:03 pm

One view of the cycle and flat and sharp lying lydian keys.

The home base of this example is F lydian (seen in the middle of the list). Above F lydian are all the sharp lying lydian scales and below F lydian are all the flat lying scales. I started each scale on F or F# for comparison's sake. This forum doesn't seem to allow me any better formatting - I'll do my best.

F# G# A# B C# D# E [ E LYD ] ### SHARP LYING SCALES ( DO NOT CONTAIN F ) ###
F# G# A B C# D# E [ A LYD ]
F# G# A B C# D E [ D LYD ]
F# G A B C# D E [ G LYD ]
F# G A B C D E [ C LYD ]
F G A B C D E [ F LYD ] ### F LYD - HOME BASE ###
F G A Bb C D E [ Bb LYD ] ### FLAT LYING SCALES ( CONTAIN F ) ###
F G A Bb C D Eb [ Eb LYD ]
F G Ab Bb C D Eb [ Ab LYD ]
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb [ Db LYD ]
F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb [ Gb LYD ]
F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb [ Cb LYD ]
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Postby chespernevins » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:38 pm

Now think about these lydian scales in relation to the F Maj I chord and D- VI chord of F lyd.

None of the sharp keys support the F Maj/D- chords on the I or VI.

Only two of the flat keys support the F Maj/D- chords.

These two flat lying keys are special because they are able to form the F maj/D- chords and therefore function as the horizontal member scales of F lydian (F Maj and F Maj b7).

F# G# A# B C# D# E [ E LYD ] ### NO F Maj/D- chords ###
F# G# A B C# D# E [ A LYD ]
F# G# A B C# D E [ D LYD ]
F# G A B C# D E [ G LYD ]
F# G A B C D E [ C LYD ]

F G A B C D E [ F LYD ] ### F LYD - HOME BASE ###
F G A Bb C D E [ Bb LYD ] ### ASSOC. WITH F DUE TO I chord (F maj - now Ih) and VI chord (D- now VIh) being still intact : F Major = HTG ###
F G A Bb C D Eb [ Eb LYD ] ### ASSOC. WITH F DUE TO I chord ( F maj Ih) and VI chord (D- VIh) being still intact : F Maj b7 = HTG ###
F G Ab Bb C D Eb [ Ab LYD ] ### NO F Maj/D- chords ###
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb [ Db LYD ]
F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb [ Gb LYD ]
F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb [ Cb LYD ]

So there is no question that playing a Bb or Eb lydian scale over F Maj/D- chords leads to HTG.

But now to carry this further into the realm of speculation: It seems to me that any of the flat lying scales to F LYD, (even though Ab, Db, Gb, and Cb cannot form the F Maj/D- chords), when played over an F maj/D- chord, can resolve to the F maj/D- chords.

For instance, Ab Lydian 9 tone is a lot like the F blues scale, and can be played over F and resolves to F giving us Horizontal Tonal Gravity.

So I wonder if any time you play a flat lying lydian scale over a sharp lying chord you will get horizontal tonal gravity, or a scale that resolves to its underlying chord instead of being a unity with its underlying chord.

George says on p.214 that placing the lower above the higher leads to duality. And isn't duality part of his definition of HTG?
Last edited by chespernevins on Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby chespernevins » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:42 pm

Now check out the inverse of the above – the relationship of the sharp lying keys to F lyd.

F# G# A# B C# D# E [ E LYD ] ### NO ASSOC. CMG TONIC STATIONS ###
F# G# A B C# D# E [ A LYD ] ### NO ASSOC. CMG TONIC STATIONS ###
F# G# A B C# D E [ D LYD ] ### NO ASSOC. CMG TONIC STATIONS ###

F# G A B C# D E [ G LYD ] ### ASSOC. WITH F DUE TO CMG TONIC STATIONS (G Maj, E min) ###
F# G A B C D E [ C LYD ] ### ASSOC. WITH F DUE TO CMG TONIC STATIONS (C Maj, A min) ###
F G A B C D E [ F LYD ] ### F LYD - HOME BASE ###

F G A Bb C D E [ Bb LYD ]
F G A Bb C D Eb [ Eb LYD ]
F G Ab Bb C D Eb [ Ab LYD ]
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb [ Db LYD ]
F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb [ Gb LYD ]
F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb [ Cb LYD ]
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Postby Bob » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:21 pm

"... the universe in a blade of grass...." or in an autumn leave.
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Postby Bob » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:30 am

I think I laid out something similar relative to bass 1/2 position on aaj cliff notes, albeit sans CMG analysis, which I am trying to grasp. You are definitely on to something. Thanks for getting me back into the Book. A walk through Chart A raises a variety of interesting questions.
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Postby chespernevins » Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:16 pm

Bb,

What was that you posted? Can you post it here or link to it?

C
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Postby Bob » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:03 pm

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthre ... post365499
but, it's no big deal. Just thinking aloud about moving to the sharp side or the flat side on bass.
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Postby Bob » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:33 pm

Ches, i've been practicing the hell out of what you've implied here. It feels like you've articulated a gateway into VHTG-land. There's this stasis within which vertical and horizontal movement occurs, rather like a bounded universe. What does this mean?
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Postby chespernevins » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:03 am

I think the CMG stuff is an attempt to illustrate the movement between vertical worlds that is present in horizontal scales.

And then analyzing these relationships gives us clues as to how vertical states relate to one another.
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Postby Bob » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:26 pm

I have always like the feel of blowing on 'one scale' while the chords are moving under it. Turns out to be easier said than done. Thinking VHTG.
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Postby chespernevins » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:38 pm

Hey Bob,

What are saying when you say VHTG?

I have always like the feel of blowing on 'one scale' while the chords are moving under it.


What you describe here sounds like "HTG" (Horizontal Tonal Gravity). I'm guessing that's what you are referring to here...

Then VTG is "Vertical Tonal Gravity".
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Postby Bob » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:05 pm

Vertical & Horizontal Gravity must exist together, similar to how the trees and the forest exist together. Maybe the notion is more elusive like waves and particles. Russell alludes to something like this as Supra-Vertical Tonal Gravity. But it seems that I hallucinated VHTG or coined it to try to get at something on my mind. I'll attempt a graphic.
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Postby chespernevins » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:41 pm

I need a searchable electronic copy of book I!!!

I found a reference to SVTG (Supra-Vertical Tonal Gravity) on p. 97 re: Coltrane's solo.

There is more on pp. 151, 189-191, 196-197. These are the ref. I could find at the moment.
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Book Club Thread?

Postby Bob » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:53 pm

It might be interesting to develop a thread in which participants give a close read to one chapter at a time, posting questions and comments. A study group.
I never noticed the font color option.
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Postby Bob » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:13 pm

Ah. Page 197: "The levels of HTG and supravertical tonal gravity are the main subjects of Volume II of The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization." And the preceding paragraphs.
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