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chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:44 pm
by Anatole
hello forum!

I don't understand how and why is there a 7th chord b9#9 on the VII of lydian augmented in chart A ?
I get it for lydian diminished, prime (bIII) brings the (M3)@(VII) while prime (II) makes the (m3)@(VII),
so how is lydian aug. the primary home scale for the 7th#9 !? (7th#9 with a p5 and not a #5)

there is indeed a 7thb9#9 @AuxDim(II) which voicing is explicitly given in chapter II (d f# a c Eb f)

this is quite an important question, for it means in a song like blue in green (davis),
the first two chords are Gm and A7#9 can be reconciled within Bb lydian augmented. (otherwise it shall be within Bb lydian consonant nucleus, but still it would be very powerful)

(what is actually the home scale and degre of a 7th#9 then !?)
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subsidiary question, once that we know what the primary color of the 7th#9 is.
see in a blues context the 7th#9 is a tonic chord,
would not it be interesting to consider the 7th#9 as a I chord @(I) of lydianb7 ?
this way I have all the b9#9b5#5 and maj7 (over the 7th/myxolydian chord) in a "tonic" situation ?


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unless it is only named 7th chord and it has no maj third but a minor seven !? (like the 11thb9 chord @lydian(VII) voiced b e a c, a perfect fourth and minor 7th).
BTW, the author says somewhere in the books, for the 7th chord family the pianists should play the interval between the (I) and the (II) (ie. a minor seven) and let the scales do the coloring..
here the author means the interval of the minor seven is the very basis for the seventh chord family, I thought it was the tritone !? well if I play a 7sus4add9 chord (bottom up G A C D F) is a chord from the seventh family ? at least it is @(II) of lydian and acts well like it.

very interesting!!
any idea people ?
thanks!

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:50 am
by chespernevins
Hi Anatole,

We have discussed this before, I think, and I don't ever remember hearing a solid explanation.

I can only guess that it has something to do with chord families... trying to figure out the quality of the chord family as a whole.

II (the Seventh/Altered Seventh family) is somewhat easier because the chord family always has the quality of the 7th, and then it's just altered as we go down the chart.

The I (Major / Altered Major family) is pretty curious too, as the label "major" makes sense on the I of Lydian, and the label "Altered Major" (Augmented) makes sense on the I of Lydian Augmented. But isn't it an interesting stretch to call the I chord of Lydian Diminished, which has a minor third, an altered major chord? It can be useful to think of it this way, but if you took it totally literally, as Major, it wouldn't work, would it? Instead, it's an assumption about the bigger picture of the category "I".

It's certainly a good question.

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:55 am
by chespernevins
so how is lydian aug. the primary home scale for the 7th#9 !? (7th#9 with a p5 and not a #5)


I don't think it is. For a 7th chord, without a #5, we look at the II category (Seventh / Altered Seventh) first.

Go down the II column until you find a 7 #9, which would be Auxiliary Diminished.

The VII chord family is an ALTERNATE choice for the 7#9, which you can see if you look at the II (Seventh / Altered Seventh) family, and then notice the roman numerals in parentheses to the right. (Showing +V, VII, III, +IV, IIh and I)

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:50 pm
by Anatole
It's certainly a good question.

it is! it is!!

thank you for your answers.

see, when I play a lydian diminished (I) chord with its I bIII +IV VII, it somehow sounds like a (I) chord from a diminished family.. idem for a blues tonic seventh chord, sounding a (I) like in the lydianb7 family.. (as if major, as in altered major would be something like the tonic or the first sound of one family).

to say I begin to understand the most ingoing place of a chord tells more about the lydian scale sound producing this chord than about the chord itself in its musical settlement.

now if I look at the alternate modal genres, I get they say a lot about how those chords are used in music (myxolydian chord as a (I) chord in the blues, otherwise the so called secondary dominants on the (VII), or on the (III), alt. dominant on the (+V), for the (+IV) I really don't know.. I wish I would know the other situations where the AMG make so much sense like this.

now for the 7th#9, I do understand what you mean, PMG @AuxDim(II), AMG @LA(VII) (this I can't really tell), AMG @LD(VII) (this is an easy OK).
I was quoting the two first chords of Blue in Green to mean what I just said in the earlier paragraph, Gm A7#9 could both originate from Bb lydian (VI) then (VII). I would say Bb lydian consonant nucleus because I can't understand how otherwise one could make a 7th chord on the (VII) of LA.

any ideas?

thanks a lot!!!

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:35 pm
by Fer Carranza
Well, looking the chord progression and the chord isolated we have this tones: Gm7: G-Bb-D-F, then A7#9: A-C#-E-G, and last BbMaj7#11: Bb- D-F-A-(E). So, the A7#9 chord is a second option of G Lydian, and the degree with more ingoing tones is the G Lydian Dimished (G-A-Bb-C#-D-E-F#). I don't see any other more ingoing than this.....

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:02 am
by Anatole
it is a A7b9@LydDim(II) not A7#9 !!

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:17 pm
by Fer Carranza
Yes, you are so right!!! Forgive my confussion please, and going again with A7#9 I can understand your doubt, and searching again at the posible scale I arrive at the VII degree of Bb Lydian dimished.

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:47 am
by Anatole
if you look at chart A but the explicit voicings given in chapter II (4th ed)
you get GR sometimes voices seventh chords without major third, as if a seven chord doesn't really need that tritone to sound seven (bluesy !??)
for instance a minor7sus(add9) chord in C lydian (bottom up) D E G A C, sounds the seventh family without its maj third, without its tritone..

what do you say about this people ?

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:39 pm
by guitarjazz
What about just a Bb lydian over A7? That works fine...suggests an 11b9 color. The other scales suggest other harmonic subtlties, including lydian augmented.

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:13 am
by Anatole
guitarjazz wrote:What about just a Bb lydian over A7? That works fine...suggests an 11b9 color. The other scales suggest other harmonic subtlties, including lydian augmented.


so either way Bb lydian/ lyd aug / lyd dim over A7 would sound a vertical Bb lydian consonant nucleus setting then ?

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:19 pm
by Fer Carranza
Anatole wrote:if you look at chart A but the explicit voicings given in chapter II (4th ed)
you get GR sometimes voices seventh chords without major third, as if a seven chord doesn't really need that tritone to sound seven (bluesy !??)
for instance a minor7sus(add9) chord in C lydian (bottom up) D E G A C, sounds the seventh family without its maj third, without its tritone..

what do you say about this people ?

It´s funny but when I found this kind of chord in a context of a fast progression I tends to play the blues scale. It sounds so natural, like you said.

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:51 pm
by guitarjazz
[quote="Anatole"][quote="guitarjazz"]What about just a Bb lydian over A7? That works fine...suggests an 11b9 color. The other scales suggest other harmonic subtlties, including lydian augmented.[/quote]

so either way Bb lydian/ lyd aug / lyd dim over A7 would sound a vertical Bb lydian consonant nucleus setting then ?[/quote]
Yes! VII 11b9 genre.

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:53 am
by chespernevins
Another question on this.

I have a tune recently where I have to blow on an extended A7#9 chord (actually, I am transposing it from E7#9 to fit this thread, but let's say it's A7#9).

It's a funky, bluesy thing where there is not a ton of room for outness, and it's not a jazz-like altered #5#9.

So I've been playing C Lyd a lot, and resolving that to G Lydian at certain moments (especially to the C#).

The nice thing is that a little bit of expansion on the C Lyd is working, such as C Aux Dim, or triads from anywhere (12 tone) resolving back to C Lyd.

Is using C Lydian (sometimes extended) over A7#9 simply a horizontal situation? Or is it supra-vertical?

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:30 am
by guitarjazz
C Lydian in that situation is essentially a G major scale used in place of G Lydian, or a horizontal scale used in place of a vertical scale. A7 being a II.

Re: chart A. 7th#9 chord @(VII) of lyd. aug. !?

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:52 am
by Anatole
guitarjazz wrote:C Lydian in that situation is essentially a G major scale used in place of G Lydian, or a horizontal scale used in place of a vertical scale. A7 being a II.


is this situation what is called "Verticalized Horizontal Melody" ? it would be supra vertical then ? (see the thread about Supra Vertical Gravity)