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Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizontal sc

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:07 pm
by Fer Carranza
Well, I'm following my own path, and in my new scales that I use to compose and to improvise I bump with chords that I can label in the usual ways, so I called "new denominación chords", and, in order to understand better where the chord primaly belongs I need to complete it with his extensions, arriving to his primal chordmode. And my question is where is the intervalo chart for horizontal scales?

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:11 pm
by Anatole
hello Fernando,

I don't know if this is what your looking for, or if it can help you;
perhaps you already know it. still, there is a chart (very interesting) that deals with horizontal gravity,
it is the ACTIVE/PASSIVE/NEUTRAL chart, inside 4th edition hardcover, at the very first page of the book, matter of fact, just under its title, where you get the intervals which are active/horizontal vs the intervals which are passive/vertical and the tritone which is horizontally neutral. (by horizontal I understand that moves the Lydian Tonic to the flat side, ie active)
example. one horizontal interval in the major scale is the fourth from prime (I), the p4@(I), any other interval that sounds the prime (IV) is horizontal.
BTW these intervals are outgoing, they are indeed beyond the 7TO in the tonal gravity chart (144 intervals).


does anybody know where else this ACTIVE/PASSIVE/NEUTRAL chart is to be found with its proper/native explanation ?
can someone say something about it or have a take on its explanation/justification ?

thanks a lot people.

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:44 am
by Fer Carranza
Hi: I have the fourth edition, and in the first page there is the Chart A, and didn´t found the one you describe. Can do you post it? My question is if there is an interval chart in the same way that there is a vertical interval chart in the first and second edition (I have it both of them). Thanks in advance!!!

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:04 pm
by chespernevins
Hi Fer,

There is not a "tonal gravity" interval chart for htg as there is for vtg.

CN

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:10 pm
by chespernevins
Anatole,

There is no explicit explanation of that ACTIVE/PASSIVE/NEUTRAL chart that I have ever seen.

IMO, I do think that the notes beyond the 7TO can simultaneously be seen in two ways: as being "outgoing" tones in a vertical sense, or being "active horizontal tones". So I do think you're on to something when mentioning that chart.

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:05 pm
by Fer Carranza
Thanks!!! It's very interesting but I see that in the view of the author only one can access to horizontal intervals when we arrive at 11th tonal order, and following this path it remains only one interval, the bII.

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:15 pm
by Fer Carranza
I want to put more in perspective the thread. Let's think that we are generating scales from our own. And in one of these scales, when we must to deal with chords, it's appear some one that is very narrow to label. I.E. this: G-Bb-D#-F#. Well, it's a minor one with major seventh and fifth raised, but what is his more ingoing environment? If it's a Lydian scale it is located in the 9th tone order, but if this chord belongs to an horizontal scale??

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:28 pm
by Anatole
chespernevins wrote:There is no explicit explanation of that ACTIVE/PASSIVE/NEUTRAL chart that I have ever seen.

I see..
was not Vol.2 on completion before GR passed away ? or it was not even drafted, far from being ever published ?

funny thing though when you know the things are just there staring you in the face.

IMO, I do think that the notes beyond the 7TO can simultaneously be seen in two ways: as being "outgoing" tones in a vertical sense, or being "active horizontal tones". So I do think you're on to something when mentioning that chart.

yes yes ! it is what I wanted to mean by
these intervals are outgoing, they are indeed beyond the 7TO in the tonal gravity chart

thinkin about it, 'horizontally active' DO mean 'outgoing', even if it still has its meaning which is 'not that close to the source / quite remote vertically', when I play a (+5) ascending, I do hear both the vertical relation/tendency and the horizontal relation/tendency, it sounds really good, in a certain way there are indeed two lydian (interval) tonics at the same time.
(as there are always several lydian tonics at the same time.. it is just that we don't hear them yet)

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:54 pm
by Anatole
Fernando,
see I think there is only one TG chart, we need only one btw, the one that have the 144 intervals on it, the intervals beyond the 7TO are both horizontal and vertical, they get less horizontal to me when the current lydian tonic tendency is well established..
the horizontal relations are understandable from the vertical relations (those are not the original words but I thought I ought to understand it)
in the original text, there is indeed a big deal with the (+4)@(I) which neutralizes the horizontal tendencies but I quite don't get why and how, the (+4)@(I) does establish the current LT, and is very tonal indeed.. I lack perspective there..

you can't really have a chart for horizontal scales because they h ave several lydian tonics (indeed they are horizontal! ie. a major scale has its (I) and its (IV) whose respective distances are sounded) but you can apply the TG chart to them..


please someone help to correct me

edit: G Bb D# F# I prefer Chesper's analysis than mine!

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:31 pm
by Fer Carranza
Thanks for the explanation Anatole!!! After posting and reposting on this thread I arrived at the same conclusion that you gave me, and I´m going this way. Using the Interval Chart I arrive at the Auxiliary Dimished Scale, which contains both IV and #IV of the chord, the bIII and the VII, all added up of the tonic.

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:50 pm
by chespernevins
Hmm, well if I had to analyze G Bb D#(Eb) F#, I would say it comes from Eb Lydian.

It has 3 notes in the Lydian scale, and only one from the 9TO. (The stack of notes is the WOTG, shown with the LT at the bottom).

E
Ab
Db
F# <-
B
A
D
G <-
C
F
Bb <-
Eb <-

Compare to Bb, where 2 are from the Lydian, 1 is from the 9TO and one is the 11th tone.

B
Eb <-
Ab
Db
F# <-
E
A
D
G <-
C
F
Bb <-


In G Lydian, 2 of the notes are from the Lydian, and 2 from the 9TO.

Ab
C
F
Bb <-
D# <-
C#
F# <-
B
E
A
D
G <-


In Gb, there are 3 notes from Lydian, but the 4th is the b9, the 12th tone.

G <-
B
E
A
D
C
F
Bb <-
Eb <-
Ab
Db
Gb <-

Re: Is appropiate to ask about chart intervalo for horizonta

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:53 pm
by Fer Carranza
It´s interesting Chesper like you said. The scale you suggest goes like this (since 9 T.O. leads to Lydian Dimished Scale): Eb- F- Gb(F#)- A-Bb-C-D, with the only abscence of the tonic of the chord (G). It seems to be the more plausible option indeed.