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Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:01 pm
by Fer Carranza
Hi: Since I returned to the chart I discover how valuable it is, but I´m not very sure about the use of it, or almost if I´m understanding it in the real way.
I start with the statement that this chart shows the behaviour of all kinds of intervals over a Lydian Tonic. I´m right on this?
If it´s true then I can develop the results than follows taking like basis a C Lydian Chromatic Scale:
-II) Consonant Nucleus: VII (B, note that make a -II interval to C); +IV (F#, making it to G); +V (Ab, doing it to A);
Less consonant: IV (F making a -II to F#); -VII (Bb doing it to a B); VI (A doing it to Bb); III (E evolving to a F); -II (Db evolving to a D) and I (C evolving to a Db).
Taking the II interval the results are:
II) Consonant Nucleus: I (C making a II interval to a D); V (G doing it to a A); II (D doing it to a E); VI (A making it to a B); III (E evolving to a F#) and +IV (F# doing it to a G#/Ab)
Less consonant: -III (Eb making a II interval to a F); +V (G#/Ab doing it to a Bb); -VII (Bb doing it to a C); IV (F evolving to a G); VII (B evolving to a Db) and -II (Db making a II interval to a Eb).
I can follow with this but I want to feel shure that I´m doing the right reasoning and the right use of this. Another question is: what kind of use I can make with this tool?. I thinking of taking a jazz score in example, and using it defining first the key of the tune. And then taking the intervals of the tones of melody to arrange or rearrange the piece. How can I make this? Simply by association of the intervals in the most consonant way and completing a chord with this?? How do you use it??? Thanks in advance!!!
Fernando

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:01 pm
by chespernevins
So what chart are you looking at? One of the interval charts? Is it from the old book, or is it one of the new ones that I or someone else made up from the new tonal order?

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:10 pm
by Fer Carranza
Thanks Chesper!!!! I have both of them, and searching in the forum I search your transcription of the Inteval Chart into a sheet music. It´s very interesting, I wonder why Russell changes the order of the tones for the original chart for the founded in the second one? In your graphic I can see that my point of view about the chart was correct, and that fact leads me to more questions. Focusing in -II interval chart, the order is: 7; +4; +5; b3; 5; 2 (in the consonan nucleus); and 6; b7; 4; 3; b2 and 1 in the less consonant one. I understand that the leading conception for this is that, in example in the key of C Lydian, the more ingoing -II interval is founded in the 7 degree (B to C), and forming it like a scale this produces the C Lydian one in the 7 degree. The same occurs taking the second tone, +4, that produces the C Lydian scale in the +4 degree. This is not the same for the rest of the tones founded in the chart, that builds differents variations in the C Lydian Scale (Dimished, Augmented, etc.). I feell at this point a little dissapointed because I believed that the Interval Chart should be put in to show the order of alterations, like a degradee from ingoing to outgoing into a C Lydian Chromatic Scale. So, back to the -II, I was in the hope of found here the behaviour of a Db tone on this Lydian Chromatic Universe, since Db is not a tone that forms C Lydian Scale, and in this way answering the question that Miles Davis maded to Russell about all the changes. Do you follow me?

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:18 pm
by Fer Carranza

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:26 pm
by Fer Carranza
Another point I should know is, always in reference of Db over a C Lydian Chromatic Scale, what is the scale more ingoing on this universe??? Using my common sense I think that it can be a +IV degree of G Lydian, that is C# (Db)-D-E-F#-G-A-B, because this scale only change the root of the C Lydian for the C# or Db, sustaining besides the rest of the tones. I thinked that the Chart could give me this kind of help, besides that the most insides chords over a C Lydian Chromatic universe rooted in Db in example.

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:19 pm
by chespernevins
Hi Fer,

There are two factors that contribute to this chart.

The first factor is that there are the "tonal orders": 7TO (Lyd), 9TO, 10TO, 11TO, and 12TO.

We must use all the 7TO intervals first. 7 TO intervals can only contain notes that are within the first 7 notes of the WOTG (the notes of the Lydian scale).

The only minor 2 intervals that are in the C Lydian scale are B-C and F#-G.

If we want to order these two intervals, how do we know which interval comes first, and which second?

That is where the second factor comes in: Each interval has a tonic.

For example, for any half step interval, the upper note of the half step is the tonic of the interval. So, in the 7 tone order, C is the tonic of the B-C interval. G is the tonic of the F#-G interval.

In the WOTG, (in C Lydian) C comes first, and G comes second. Therefore, the B-C interval comes first, and the F#-G interval comes next.

Then we can move on to the 9TO. Notice that only notes contained in the 9TO can be used. (Although the 7 TO is a subset of the 9TO, intervals that have already been used in the 7TO are not re-used). Once again, intervals are ordered by considering the tonic of each interval, and ordering the tonics according to the WOTG.

Then move on to 10TO, 11To, and 12TO. It is indicated on the chart where each of these orders begin.

C 7TO: C G D A E B F#
C 9TO: C G D A E B F# + G# D#
C 10To: C G D A E B F# G# D# + Bb
C 11 TO: C G D A E B F# G# D# Bb + F
C 12 TO: C G D A E B F# G# D# Bb F + Db

WOTG: C G D A E B F# G# D# Bb F Db

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:44 am
by Anatole
great!

do you feel that a synthetic scale ((9 tone, 10 tone, 11 tone) sound more outgoing than its corresponding lydian parent scale ? say the consonant nucleus (9 tone scale) next to a 'pure' lydian augmented ?
ex. lydian aug with a P5 and +5 next to lyd aug without P5 ?

now I feel that I should look at it from another way, not about the ingoing/outgoing sound of an entire scale but about the actually sounding individual intervals within? ex if I look at the m2, it sounds more ingoing from the b3 to the 3 (9 tone scale) than from the M2 to the b3.

I once asked why a voicing like C E G Ab sounds Ab lyd aug and not C lyd aug ?
the m2 between the G and Ab sounds more ingoing within Ab lyd chromatic than C lyd chromatic,
the m2 between the G and Ab sounds less remote from the Ab than the C.
it sounds weird though because of the G over the C.

the interval chart relates each individual interval sound in relation to its lydian tonic
I've always wondered why it should not be in the 4th edition? is the 4th edition WOTG the interval chart by itself ?

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:21 pm
by Fer Carranza
Thanks Chesper, what a fool am I!!!! I´m so comfortable with the Tonal Orders that I forgive that in the view of the LCCOTO this interval, the b2, appears at last, in the 12 T.O.!!!! All the questions and doubts about the chart leads me to form several ways to achieve what I formerly on this thread was demanding, and are scales that contains this interval in particular generating a some kind of degradee from most "ingoing" to less ones (I don´t know if I can use this terms due to the fact that this scales breaks the rules of tonal orders of the book, but it´s just another musical resource almost for me). Thanks Chesper again, great post.......

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:07 pm
by chespernevins
Thank you Anatole and Fer, for your kind words. Glad you got something out of the post.

Anatole said:
I once asked why a voicing like C E G Ab sounds Ab lyd aug and not C lyd aug ?


This is a pretty interesting example Anatole. A vertical C and a vertical Ab interpretation seem quite similar in terms of ingoing/outgoing relationships, theoretically. Looking at all the intervals within this 4 note sound - based on the same logic found in the chart - is interesting. I get that the C interpretation mixes the 5 and #5, and that is not the case in the Ab interpretation.

That being said, when I first played these four notes on the piano, in closed position, it struck me as a horizontal sound (verticalized horizontal structure) to me, in the key of C.

I am not sure about your question of the 9TO scale as compared to the L.A. and L.D. It's a good question. The 9TO certainly has more choices, and thus more opportunity to sound outgoing, I think.

SalKur says:
Isn't this the same chart that was posted at the FreeJazzInstitute sometime back with sound? I can't seem to find it now. It was fun to listen to.


I honestly don't remember if I had posted a sound file of this. I am confident that Motherlode posted his. Of course, remember, his is the older version, while this one is the newer version that is generated in the new way, and uses the new tonal order. They both have their advantages, I think.

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:16 pm
by Fer Carranza
I´m using my own interpretation of the Interval Chart over Giant Steps, and I want to share some stuff I recorded with it. The melody has some wrong tones, it´s only to show how my approach can give another perspective to the Chart. Hope do you enjoy it.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82kuoz8oaNs

Re: Back to the Interval Chart.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:21 pm
by Anatole
@chespernevins, could we just sum it up for me ?

lydian 7TO : (49) intervals.
lydian aug: (13) new intervals produced by prime +5
lydian dim: (13) new intervals produced by prime b3
9-tone scale: (6) new intervals when combining lydian, lyd aug and lyd dim

is the following statement correct concerning the 9TO ?
9TO: (13) + (13) + (6) = (32) intervals organized according to the WOTG (close to remote from their source).
consonant nucleus: (49) + (13) + (13) + (6) = (81) intervals organized..

as I look at your interval chart compared with the LCC older edition chart (white cover / red title edition)
I understand the 9TO introduces the (32) intervals following their interval tonics and the WOTG. ex: interval (-2) from prime (b3) is more ingoing than interval (-2) from prime (5) etc.

in the older edition the interval chart introduces new intervals with lyd aug, then lyd dim, then the 9-tone scale,
the focus is on the new intervals / colours produced by each non lydian / characteristic tone, so the interval (-2) from prime (2) is introduced "before" the (-2) from prime (b3)
it is not the same focus as organizing the whole set of (32) new intervals from close to remote following the WOTG thus "mixing" the new colours/intervals produced by primes +5 and b3

is this why there is no interval chart included in 4th ed ? because it is meant to be understood as you showed in the previous post and built from interval tonics upon the WOTG ?