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parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:13 am
by Anatole
can someone have an LCC look on this progression and voicings I got ?

Db11(b5) | B9(b5) | Db11(b5) | F maj7 D maj7 | B maj7 E7#9#5 | Db11(b5) |

D-7 F-7 | Ab-7 B9(b5) | F maj7 D maj7 | F maj7 E7#9#5 | F maj7 D maj7 |

F maj7 Eb maj7 | Db11(b5) | Db11(b5) ||

I've been pondering on the ambiguous chords here.

Db11(b5) voiced as Db g b Eb Gb.
I first thought that's a +IV of G lyd aug.
now I'm thinking perhaps there is an implicit maj3 that says the most ingoing sonic space would be on the II of B lydian augmented (which shares its p5 and its +5).
btw the b5 in a 7th chord is lydian augmented characteristic tone (+V), and any altered 7th chord might be immediately associated with 7th chords on the II of lydian chromatic scale ?

E7#9#5 voiced as e c d g Ab.
I am always asking if it on the +V of Ab lyd aug or the III of C lyd aug ?
is 'pure' lyd aug more ingoing than lyd aug with its p5 ?

or that is not the point to it because in real life 7th#5 chords are on the +V of lydian aug and altered seventh are on the II ? real life(!) anyway is the best part with the LCC.

the B9b5 voiced b d# f a c#:
it could be II of A lyd aug or I of B lydian b7,
is that the point about ambiguous/altered chords then ? they can apply to both/several sonic spaces ? it allows many more things then.

from experience, are there more ingoing situations for ambiguous chords as such that should be considered at once among the several possibilities more outgoing ? perhaps it is what GR says in the books that I misunderstood at some point.

can someone say something about this then ? does it ring you other situations like this that I might ponder for nights/life that are to be set at once.
the best would be to come out with multiple solutions - though not ambiguous ones - for ambiguous chords.

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:20 pm
by matoi
Hi!

This is how I currently see these tonesets:

11(b5)
primairly belongs to group II, and is quite similar in its nature to 11 voiced without the 5th

7#9#5
primarily belongs to group III

9b5
primarily belongs to group II

Check yourself, and let me know if you disagree.

All the best,

m

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:03 pm
by Anatole
I agree but for 7#9#5 I would also say it is both +V and III

matter of facts each of those chords can be ambiguous (see voicings) and seem to have several parent scale (they represent Alternate Modal Genres).

now my problem is when I read GR, he says 7#5 are on the +V of lydian augmented as if he knows it is primarily there.

I think there are also other occurrences when an AMG is more obvious than another and this is what I'm looking/asking for.

for example when a m7b5 chord is followed with a 7th chord, this 7th chord is an AMG VII (lydian dim), this one is quite easy, but for the others I can't say by lack of experience.

see?

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:20 pm
by matoi
For me 7#5 primarily belongs to group III, not +V. I see it is possible to use any chord in any possible way and in different contexts, but when talking about it's sole primary character that is how I hear and see it.

Chords that I'd call ambiguous are: aug (no seventh), dim and 7b5.

But maybe I have a slightly different perception of these things, or just need more experience too - I'm toying with these things for about two years now...

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:41 pm
by NateComp
There is one really important thing that I found in the LCC when dealing with these situations (and voicings):

When George talks about finding which scale contains the 'Prime Color' of a chord.

Once you have established the location of a chord (the Primary Modal Genre of the chord), you then look at which scale best reflects the 'flavor' of that chord.

Using your first chord as an example, if it were a simple Db7, then it would easily be classified as a II chord (from B Lydian).

Even as a Db9, Db11, or Db13, the 'Prime Color' would still exist within B Lydian.

If your chord was Db9#11, it would still be a II chord, but from B Lydian Augmented (the next scale down the list).

If your chord were Db13b9, it would still be a II chord, but from B Lydian Diminished (the next scale down on the list).

If your chord were Db11b13, it would still be a II chord, but from B Lydian Dominant (the next scale down on the list).

(and so on and so on...)

The tricky part is that your voicing is somewhat ambiguous (without the 3rd) as well as the fact that it contains the 11 as well as the b5: Db G B Eb Gb (Root b5 b7 9 11)

What I discovered is this:

if I locate the MOST COMMON LOCATION for a chord (in this case, Db as the II chord), and I explore every 'color' available for that chord (by going through every scale variation in order) and I STILL don't find the voicing that I'm looking for, I'll begin to consider OTHER LOCATIONS for that chord. (either with Alternate Modal Genres, Secondary Modal Genres, or the possibilty that my voicing is actually just an INVERSION OF ANOTHER CHORD.)

With your example, I'd arrive (just like you did) at this: Db11b5 as the +IV chord of G Lydian Augmented.

This choice contains all of the intervals of your voicing, but contains a Minor 3rd interval as opposed to a Major 3rd.

The same thing would be true with Db11b5 as the VI chord of E Lydian Diminished (contains all of the intervals of your voicing, but contains a Minor 3rd interval as opposed to a Major 3rd).

The same thing would be true with Db11b5 as the III chord of A Lydian Dominant (contains all of the intervals of your voicing, but contains a Minor 3rd interval as opposed to a Major 3rd).

The hard part is that if you're searching for a sound where that 'implied Major 3rd' IS in there, you're going to run into trouble, because the Major 3rd (F), the 11th (Gb), and the b5th (G) all together in seequence will give you two consecutive half steps, which is nowhere to be found in ANY of the scales.

This is where it comes down to choosing sounds based on personal taste, and finding which option you prefer.

If Db11b5 is the +IV chord of G Lydian Augmented, you get all of your chord tones, but not a Major 3rd.

If Db11b5 is the II chord of B Lydian Augmented, you get MOST of your chord tones, and you DO get your Major 3rd, but you lose the 11th (Gb).

If you can't seem to make a decision, here's the last thing:

Your voicing of Db G B Eb Gb could be viewed as an A13#11 in First Inversion (C# G B D# F#).

This is now easliy catagorized as a II chord, and The 'Prime Color" scale for A13#11 would be G Lydian Augmented.

By converting Db11b5 to A13#11/C# (First Inversion, making use of the 3rd in the bass), this becomes a MUCH easier chord to deal with.

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:24 am
by NateComp
A few more options to consider for the Db11b5 chord:

(I'm using Secondary Modal Genres here, so the Numerals are going to seem a bit odd... and once again, none of these will give you ALL of your chord tones as well as the 'implied' Major 3rd that you're looking for, but at least you can see/hear what is available)


- Db11b5 as the IV chord of Ab Lydian Diminished - contains the b5, b7, and 9 from your voicing, DOES contain the Major 3rd interval, but does NOT contain the 11, and also doesn't have the ROOT (an idea that I use a LOT of - find the color tones and leave the ROOT OUT)- (!?!?!)


- Db11b5 as the bVII chord of Eb Lydian Augmented - contains the b5, b7, and 9 from your voicing, DOES contain the Major 3rd interval, but does NOT contain the 11, and also doesn't have the ROOT.


- Db11b5 as the bII chord of C Lydian Diminished - contains the b5, b7, 9 and 11 from your voicing, DOES NOT contain the Major 3rd interval, and also doesn't have the ROOT.


- Db11b5 as the VII chord of D Half/Whole Diminished - contains the b7, 9, and 11 from your voicing, DOES contain the Major 3rd interval, but does NOT contain the b5, and also doesn't have the ROOT.

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:30 am
by matoi
Been listening and playing with it a little,
here is order of preference for my ears (for stated voicing of 11b5):
definitely primarily at home as II,
excellent (secondary use) as VI or III,
getting borderline as +IV, VII or V on the other hand
less good @bII
a bit harsh in other roles (I, IV, bVII, bIII, +V)
Cheers to both of you!
m

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:59 am
by Anatole
NateComp wrote:There is one really important thing that I found in the LCC when dealing with these situations (and voicings):

When George talks about finding which scale contains the 'Prime Color' of a chord.

Once you have established the location of a chord (the Primary Modal Genre of the chord), you then look at which scale best reflects the 'flavor' of that chord.
...
The tricky part is that your voicing is somewhat ambiguous (without the 3rd) as well as the fact that it contains the 11 as well as the b5: Db G B Eb Gb (Root b5 b7 9 11)
...
if I locate the MOST COMMON LOCATION for a chord (in this case, Db as the II chord), and I explore every 'color' available for that chord (by going through every scale variation in order) and I STILL don't find the voicing that I'm looking for, I'll begin to consider OTHER LOCATIONS for that chord. (either with Alternate Modal Genres, Secondary Modal Genres, or the possibilty that my voicing is actually just an INVERSION OF ANOTHER CHORD.)


OK. I understand what you mean. I think it is really important indeed. thanks a lot btw.
when I read GR, he says 7#5 are on the +V of lydian augmented as if he knows it is primarily there.


now see:
The hard part is that if you're searching for a sound where that 'implied Major 3rd' IS in there, you're going to run into trouble, because the Major 3rd (F), the 11th (Gb), and the b5th (G) all together in seequence will give you two consecutive half steps, which is nowhere to be found in ANY of the scales.


it gets tricky indeed because we need the 9 tone scale (consonant nuclueus).
an implicit maj3 that says the most ingoing sonic space would be on the II of B lydian augmented (which shares its p5 and its +5).


if you use personal taste, considering a particular voicing, though the 9 tone scale seems more outgoing (consecutives halfsteps +4 5 +5 6) than a pure lydian aug or pure lydian dim, I can place the Db11b5 on its most common location: II of B lydian augmented enhanced with its p5, Gb is the top note in the chord, how does this sound to you ?
there is a kind of ingoing practice by assigning an altered chord at its most common place, its structure would be at its common place while its superstructure/extensions would sound altered indeed.

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:03 am
by matoi
Interesting! I miss ML and his insights here. I'll search for the discussion at AAJ...

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:42 am
by matoi
Well, I found this post:
http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?61006-Equal-Division-of-the-Octave-(EDO)&p=663792&viewfull=1#post663792
The whole discussion there is a bit too complex for me at the moment, so I didn't follow the whole story.
But as an experiment this morning I took a little time with the aim of finding a single tonal center
which might be used as the basis for covering the whole of that chord sequence (horizontal playing).
Wasn't completely systematic about it (could be that some other time I'd rate something else as a better choice),
but anyway I got pulled into A, and somehow got to liking its Aeolian modal genre (also mixing it with others).
Wonder if that would make any sense for you...
Cheers!
m

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:40 pm
by guitarjazz
[quote="Anatole"]can someone have an LCC look on this progression and voicings I got ?

Db11(b5)[/quote]
Do you have a melody for this? I'd like to hear it in context. I hear this as Gmaj7b5/Db or Glydian/Db...whether or not you treat it as a Minor Seventhb5 genre or Seventh genre chord kinda depends on your intent and how you hear the overall melody (horizontal factors).

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:31 pm
by matoi
guitarjazz wrote:I hear this as Gmaj7b5/Db

Probably just a typo isn't it? His voicing:
Anatole wrote:Db11(b5) voiced as Db g b Eb Gb.

would corespond to GMaj7#5/Db, that is just how I took it...

@Salkur
I don't know why ML said that, but I agree with you about that voicing not being ambiguous.
But who knows, a single word can mean different things to different people,
especially when it's 'ambiguous' :mrgreen:

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:59 pm
by guitarjazz
[quote="matoi"][quote="guitarjazz"]I hear this as Gmaj7b5/Db[/quote]
Probably just a typo isn't it? His voicing:
[quote="Anatole"]Db11(b5) voiced as Db [b]g[/b] b [b]Eb[/b] Gb.[/quote]
would corespond to GMaj7[b]#[/b]5/Db, that is just how I took it...

[/quote]
It does say Eb. That really doesn't change my point since the Lydian Tonic is the same. The chord symbol indicates that it is in the Seventh genre as opposes to Minor 7b5 genre. Chord symbols are far from an exact science so it'd be nice to hear the context in order to assess the 'ambiguity'.

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:54 pm
by Anatole
OK thank you for your answers!!

the melody is not officially written yet,
so anyone can take the challenge and write his own and make his choice over those 'ambiguous' chords/voicings.

about chord notation I can't say that I'm totally aware of the consensus over chord notation so I can't always tell if a notation do or don't imply what is not written ahah
I understand it may come with experience, anyway,

I meant ambiguous voicings which taken alone/vertically can reside within several lydian parent scales.
I understand, thanks to you, that taken horizontally/considering the melody or the next/preceding voicings/chords that I can get more infos to choose the lydian scale which may sound the most ingoing for the sequence of chords/voicings and/or the melody if there is one.

still I can use the Alternate Modal Genres to improvise and have more vertical and outgoing outcomes, that the best part in it, this is really cool stuff, isn't it?

Re: parent scales and ambiguous chords

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:15 am
by bobappleton
great to see you back in the forum nate... always enjoyed your posts...

bob