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Supra Vertical approach.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:36 pm
by Fer Carranza
Hi: I´m thinking and thinking about the question of Miles Davis to George Russell and the answer that George gave to it, relating all the scales to a Lydian Chromatic Tonic, which provides the seven principal scales, and the scales derived from Alternate and Conceptual Modal Tonics. But, if I must to go more far away I can use the other scales refered to the Lydian Chromatic Tonic. So, in a progression like this: Dm7/G7/CMaj7, the most ingoing choice is the C Lydian Scale and all of the seven Lydian Scales derived from it. But if I want to make a line using supra vertical melodies, I can choose in example G Lydian Scale and the seven modes of it, or, more far away, I can pick D Lydian Scale. This is the use of supra vertical approach or I go wrong with it?
thanks!!!!

Re: Supra Vertical approach.

PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:58 pm
by guitarjazz
The most ingoing scale for that progression would be F lydian. This puts the C major in a horizontal state. For me incorporating some horizontal aspect to the realization is the 'glue' that makes a super-vertical approach work. Really, when you think about it, so much music simultaneously incorporates various levels of vertical and horizontal tonal gravity. This was going on before George Russell wrote the LCC. He just opened the doors a little wider.

Re: Supra Vertical approach.

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:10 pm
by Fer Carranza
I see your point, and it´s a sure affirmation, but in the other hand everyone can see the draw of the rocket in "The River Trip" figure and the name of Ornette Coleman, like pointing that Coleman´s approach is in some way the door to the Supra Vertical state of harmony, and the sentence "Ab LC Scale Supra Vertical G Melody -Ingoing and/or Outgoing", playing with the two states (horizontal and vertical). When I hear Ornette Coleman´s way of improvising I don´t see so many horizontal or vertical, it´s more like a mixture of both, maybe this is the really Supra Vertical state. What do you think?

Re: Supra Vertical approach.

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:53 pm
by guitarjazz
Interesting observation. Have you heard the Ornette recording 'Live at the Hillcrest Club', w Paul Bley? It's in YouTube. It's quite extraordinary. It's hard for me to separate 'Ornette' from Billy Higgins and Charlie Haden. Paul Bley was and is brilliant.

Re: Supra Vertical approach.

PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 7:17 pm
by Fer Carranza
Thanks to linked with this music!!!! I enjoyed a lot!!!! I was hearing another stuff of Coleman, and this is another thing. Just beauty!!! I was thinking the last days one idea, sounds silly but in some way I think that is a path to follow. When we learn the blues scale, it´s a minor scale played over major chords, and if anyone join together the blues scale of a root, in example E, over a E major chord, the two states resides in the most primitive way, because the presence of the 4th. and the raised 4th. Just this.....

Re: Supra Vertical approach.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:49 pm
by FiveHundo500
HI. Almost a year has gone by since this post, but I was recently reading LCC for more clues about SVTG. SVTG is not just about using more "sharp" lydian chromatic scales. that approach is more on the side of the Conceptual Modal Genres, which GR considers as horizontal rather than vertical, and certainly not supra-vertical (this is what the small "h" means next to some of the alternate modal tonics on Chart A on the left side). SVTG does however typically involve what in the book is called "Verticalized Horizontal Melody" simultaneously with "Horizontalized Vertical Melody." The idea of SVTG is to select parent LC scales that are more abstract from the most ingoing choice of LC scale within a certain chord progression. For example, the fragment of the progression in Giant Steps, also used as an example of SVTG in the book, Bm7 E7 Gmaj7. The most ingoing approach here would be D-Lydian followed by G-Lydian (not C-lydian as someone who posted above mentioned. Maj7 chords are most unified with the lydian scale itself, you don't need to keep passing down the circle of 5ths to be more lydian. this is a typical misinterpretation of the LCC). A Supra-vertical approach to this chord progression (Bm E7 G) would select a parent LC scale such as D or A lydian for all three chords. The main problem with these two selections is minimal, and it is that the G# present in both D and A lydian will possibly render the Gmaj7 in the 12-tone order, the most outgoing state of vertical tonal gravity, if G# is too prominent in the SVTG melody. This is different from what was said above by someone else and the OP because another SVTG choice, even more guaranteed to be ingoing, would be F Lydian, or even better, F Lydian Augmented, or even Bb Lydian/LA. With that choice, there is no chance of risking 12-tone order in any of the chords of the progression.

Re: Supra Vertical approach.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:28 am
by Anatole
FiveHundo500 wrote:HI. Almost a year has gone by since this post, but I was recently reading LCC for more clues about SVTG. SVTG is not just about using more "sharp" lydian chromatic scales. that approach is more on the side of the Conceptual Modal Genres, which GR considers as horizontal rather than vertical, and certainly not supra-vertical (this is what the small "h" means next to some of the alternate modal tonics on Chart A on the left side). SVTG does however typically involve what in the book is called "Verticalized Horizontal Melody" simultaneously with "Horizontalized Vertical Melody." The idea of SVTG is to select parent LC scales that are more abstract from the most ingoing choice of LC scale within a certain chord progression. For example, the fragment of the progression in Giant Steps, also used as an example of SVTG in the book, Bm7 E7 Gmaj7. The most ingoing approach here would be D-Lydian followed by G-Lydian (not C-lydian as someone who posted above mentioned. Maj7 chords are most unified with the lydian scale itself, you don't need to keep passing down the circle of 5ths to be more lydian. this is a typical misinterpretation of the LCC). A Supra-vertical approach to this chord progression (Bm E7 G) would select a parent LC scale such as D or A lydian for all three chords. The main problem with these two selections is minimal, and it is that the G# present in both D and A lydian will possibly render the Gmaj7 in the 12-tone order, the most outgoing state of vertical tonal gravity, if G# is too prominent in the SVTG melody. This is different from what was said above by someone else and the OP because another SVTG choice, even more guaranteed to be ingoing, would be F Lydian, or even better, F Lydian Augmented, or even Bb Lydian/LA. With that choice, there is no chance of risking 12-tone order in any of the chords of the progression.


thank you for the clarification!!

with SVTG, is it really important to mind the line/melody vertical tonal order when the very idea, which is quite hardcore and reckless, bebop, is somehow to claim the sound, to overlay an outside melody from another LC scale ?


"Verticalized Horizontal Melody" and "Horizontalized Vertical Melody" are quite funny terms though.

is it "Verticalized Horizontal Melody" when the melody changes its tonal center / moves its lydian tonic (is horizontal) while the chords don't/remains within one lydian tonic (whatever tonal order) (ie. the melody is verticalized)

and "Horizontalized Vertical Melody" when the chords change/moves from one lydian tonic to another and so on (horizontal) while the melody remains vertical (whatever tonal order).

both implies SVTG and distant tonal orders but it is merely a consequence of what is going on.

if this is true.
well! I may call it a day.