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I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:13 pm
by Fer Carranza
Hi: I can´t remember how LCC deal with dimished chords, in what category of chords they fit??? In example a Edim chord....I tend to link this chord to a A7b9 because they share the most of the tones in common: E-G-Bb-Db (E dim) and A-C#-E-G-Bb (A7b9). Do you make the same assumption??? Thanks folks, and forgive me, I can remember making the same question but I can´t find the answer!!!
Fernando

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:40 pm
by gvetsch
Hi Fer
Yes the Edim chord relates to A7b9 but also C7b9,Eb7b9,and Gb7b9. If you lower any tone of Edim{E G Bb Db)by a half step
you get the four seventh chords-A7,C7,Eb7,Gb7. Or think down a maj 3rd from any Edim cord tone.
Now this is common music theory and not unique to the LCC.
Of course there are more ways to define how we use dim chords in a progression like CMaj7-C#dim7-Dmin7 which can be
viewed as CMaj7-A7b9-Dmin7.




Greg

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:44 pm
by Fer Carranza
Thanks, very useful!!! What it can be the logical assumption wearing LCC dealing with a dim chord??

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:35 pm
by chespernevins
Check out the footnote on p. 25: "Augmented and diminished chords are regarded as belonging primarily to the I major and VI minor chord categories of the Lydian Chromatic Scale."

I think the rationale is that you look down the left side of chart A as the first step. You are trying to identify the primary modal tonic degree. Diminished is housed under the I "altered Major" degree. (This is somewhat unfamilar logic until you get used to it). Then you go to the Seven Principal Scales and the first scale down that gives us the dim chord on the I degree is the most ingoing choice. The scale is Lydian diminished.

If you start again, looking for another option, the dim chord is housed under the VI "altered Minor" degree. Then you go to the Seven Principal Scales and the first scale down that gives us the dim chord on the VI degree is the most ingoing choice. The scale happens be Lyd. Dim. as well.

Remember, this is just saying that Lydian Dim is the most ingoing scale in a vertical sense, it's not saying that it is the right scale for every musical situation that contains a dim chord.

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:06 pm
by Fer Carranza
Thanks Chesper!!! I could see it now....

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:46 pm
by NateComp
Chesper got it right with (in regard to dim as PMG I or PMG VI of Lyd Dim) "this is just saying that Lydian Dim is the most ingoing scale in a vertical sense, it's not saying that it is the right scale for every musical situation that contains a dim chord".

For me, the two big things that determine how I interpret a dim chord are 1., the context of the chord in the progression (where am I coming from and where am I going) and 2., what "color" would be appropriate to use on the chord if I extend it beyond just the chord tones (if I want to add 9, b9, etc.)

Here are some options I like (including what Chesper mentioned, along with some others):

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
As PMG I of E Lyd Dim, we have E F# G A#(Bb) B C#(Db) D# E
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a Major 7th (D#), a 9th (F#), and oddly enough, a natural 5th (B).

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
As PMG VI of G Lyd Dim, we have G A Bb C#(Db) D E F# G
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have Minor 7th (D), a 9th (F#), and an 11th (A).

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
*As PMG +IV of Bb Lyd Dim, we have Bb C Db E F G A Bb
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a b9th (F), an 11th (A) and a b13th (C).
I think this is a much more "remote" option Vertically because of the amount of tension within the scale, but it is STILL a possible choice.

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
As PMG I of E Aux Dim (the Whole-Half Dim), we have E F# G A Bb C C#(Db) D# E
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a Major 7th (D#), a 9th (F#), an 11th (A), and a b13th (C).
This is an "in between" choice Vertically, yet I think still it's a nice one, simply because we have some of the extensions from the most "ingoing" Dim sound (PMG I of Lyd Dim, which is where we have the Major 7th and 9th sounds), as well as some more "outgoing" tensions for "color" (the 11th and b13th).

Like I said, for me it's all about context. It's all a matter of how much you want the chord to "come alive".

You could play nothing but a Dim 7th arpeggio, all just chord tones, and be "living" in all 4 of these "environments" simultaneously. I think the most interesting observation is this:

Chord Tones followed by tensions:

E dim 7th as PMG I of E Lyd Dim: E G Bb Db (D# F# B) = R b3 b5 bb7 7 9 Nat.5

E dim 7th as PMG VI of G Lyd Dim: E G Bb Db (D F# A) = R b3 b5 bb7 b7 9 11

E dim 7th as PMG +IV of Bb Lyd Dim: E G Bb Db (F A C) = R b3 b5 bb7 b9 11 b13

E dim 7th as PMG I of E Aux Dim: E G Bb Db (D# F# A C) = R b3 b5 bb7 7 9 11 b13

That's 11 out of 12 notes in the Chromatic Scale. The only tone missing is G#, the Major 3rd, which of course is no coincidence :)

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:37 am
by Fer Carranza
Great answer!!!! Thanks....I will use it with this help.

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:32 am
by chespernevins
Great post, NateComp, thanks.

As PMG +IV of Bb Lyd Dim, we have Bb C Db E F G A Bb


This is cool.

I just wanted to point out that this +IV Modal Tonic degree is listed on chart A as an Alternate Modal Tonic (AMT).

I think Chart A is really supporting your choice to add +IV as a Modal Tonic Degree (whether Primary or Alternate) because it is the only AMT listed in the I or VI PMG categories that is a vertical AMT (no "h" next to it).

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:43 am
by chespernevins
Take the chord progression, in Db (I chose Db to use the Edim chord):

| F- | Edim | Eb- |Ab7 | Db |

What scale choice makes sense for Edim?

I often find it most practical on the fly to think Db Lydian Diminished.

| AbL VI | Db LD/bIII | Gb VI| Gb II | Db I |

It's just easier for me, because we are in Db, to remember to choose Db LD - and it sounds good.

There is no bIII PMT or AMT, but the bIII mode of LD calls this mode the I Lyd Dim over the bIII degree.

Isn't it interesting that this choice now includes the G# (Ab) over the E dim... or, does this count because we are really playing a Db dim/E, and there is no major third (F)...

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:16 pm
by Fer Carranza
I want to introduce for further analysis the four firsts chords of Wave (Antonio Jobim):

DMaj7- Bbdim- Am7- D7b9


In that case, and playing the melodic material is clear that the scale to wear over Bb dim chord like first choice is C dimished, that is: C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb. This scale it can be founded in LCC if we choose to spell the chord like a first degree of Bb, in Bb Auxiliary Dimished. Another choice is choosing VI degree of Db, in Db Auxiliary Dimished, and so on. But for me, at last for this song the most ingoing place to go is spelling it like IIIh degree of F#, in the form of F# Auxiliary Dimished Blues, and I choose this because the horizontal nature of the chord, searching to solve in Am7, the next one. Obviously, everyone can going out of this convention and choose another one, this is my modality (not to choose the most ingoing place but wearing some Lydian/Lydian derivate scale associate to the chord in random election). What do you think??

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:24 am
by NateComp
Well, this thread is shaping up nicely :D

Something I wanted to touch on (both Chesper and Fer hit on these ideas a bit) that I started to explore a long time ago:

E dim 7 = E G Bb Db

And an E dim 7 is ALSO = G dim 7, Bb dim 7, Db dim 7

SO, look at all of the choices I listed before for E dim 7, BUT, using the different possible names for this chord, see how it fits as different PMG numerals.

Example I listed before, with new "perspectives":

Chord: E dim 7
As PMG I of E Lyd Dim, we have E F# G A#(Bb) B C#(Db) D# E
This is where we had the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a Major 7th (D#), a 9th (F#), and the natural 5th (B).

If we RENAME THIS CHORD as G dim 7...

It's the bIII of E Lyd Dim (or, as Chesper mentioned, the I PMG chord/bIII in the bass)

Giving us G Bb B C# (Db) D# E F# G

RENAMING the E dim 7 as a G dim 7 all of the sudden changes the RELATIONSHIP of intervals to the chord:
we have all 4 chord tones, PLUS the Major 7th (F#), the b13 (D#/Eb), and what do you know, the Major 3rd (B).

If we RENAME THIS CHORD as Bb dim 7...

It's the +IV of E Lyd Dim
(one of the other choices I listed before)

And if we RENAME THIS CHORD as Db dim 7...

It's the VI of E Lyd Dim
(also one of the other choices I listed before)

This EXACT SAME IDEA works using Aux Dim, but because of the symmetrical nature of this particular scale, you end up just DUPLICATING the tones of the original Parent Scale:

Chord: E dim 7
As PMG I of E Aux Dim, we have E F# G A Bb C C#(Db) D# E

If we RENAME THIS CHORD as G dim 7...

It's the bIII of E Aux Dim (once again, it's really the I PMG chord/bIII in the bass)
Giving us G A Bb C C#(Db) D# E F# G
In this case, renaming the E dim 7 as a G dim 7 DOES NOT change the relationship of intervals to the chord, because E Aux Dim IS G Aux Dim!

This is also true if we RENAME THIS CHORD as Bb dim 7 (the +IV of E Aux Dim, but Bb Aux Dim IS E Aux Dim) or if If we RENAME THIS CHORD as Db dim 7 (the VI of E Aux Dim, but Db Aux Dim IS E Aux Dim)

Here's where I'm going with this:

E dim 7 = G dim 7 = Bb dim 7 = Db dim 7 (all the same chord, inversions of each other, four possible interpretations)

From an "E" Parent Scale, that's I, bIII (or I/bIII), +IV and VI

From a "G" Parent Scale, that's VI, I, bIII (I/bIII), and +IV

From a "Bb" Parent Scale, that's +IV, VI, I and bIII (I/bIII)

And from a "Db" Parent Scale, that's bIII (I/bIII), +IV, VI and I

Crazy stuff, yet so simple and organized.


Final thing that Fer hit on:

In the "Wave" progression, D Maj 7- Bb dim 7 - A min 7

I agree that there's certainly a "striving" for the A min 7, and I certainly "hear" that change (the Bb dim 7 to A min 7) as a strong horizontal situation.

So how do we treat the Bb dim 7? It could be a I (from Bb), a bIII (or I/bIII, from G), a +IV (from E), or a VI (from Db).

Here's the cool thing about the conclusion that Fer came to:

Calling it a IIIh from the F# Aux Dim Blues is NO DIFFERENT than calling it I of Bb Aux Dim!

That's because F# Aux Dim Blues IS Bb Aux Dim!

F# Aux Dim Blues = F# G A A# (Bb) C C# (Db) D# (Eb) E F#

Bb Aux Dim (as well as E Aux Dim, G Aux Dim, and Db Aux Dim) = Bb C C# (Db) D# (Eb) E F# G A Bb

No matter how you look at it (even though there is some "redundancy", it's also "continuity"), you end up with all of the same choices. Yikes!

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:46 am
by chespernevins
the most ingoing place to go is spelling it like IIIh degree of F#, in the form of F# Auxiliary Dimished Blues


I agree that the notes of this scale fit the harmony, however, I don't think it can be called a IIIh mode.

The IIIh mode implies that the Gb Lydian scale resolves to a triad built on Bb. The definition of this triad is that:

1. it uses notes from the Gb Lydian scale

2. it is something OTHER than the vertical interpretation of a III chord, which is GbL/Bb.

3. it is from a sharp lying lydian key (resulting in the parent lydian scale (Gb L) RESOLVING to the sharp lying triad).

4. it must be a major or minor triad to create a stable harmony that the conceptual mode can resolve to. The dim. triad is too unstable to resolve to.

So in this case, we can build a Bb minor triad on the III of Gb. The IIIh mode of GbL is a mode that resolves to a Bb minor triad. The Bb minor chord is really from Db Lydian. Gb Lyd resolves in a sharp direction to Db Lyd.

We can have horizontal scales outside of the designation of these conceptual modal genres (CMG) which could be used in this situation, but the CMGs are a very specific thing.

See. p. 116 in the book.

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:17 am
by Fer Carranza
Cool stuff!!! Great analysis Nat!!! The only thing I don´t understand is where NatCom derives the tone B over the E dimished chord, the scale for me it would be: E-F#-G-A-Bb-C (instead of B you write)-Db-Eb in the spell of auxiliary dimished scale of E Lydian. Or INTOH like an auxiliary dimished blues scale from E: E-F-G-G#-A#-B-C#-D.
Good point Chesper, very interesting, I agree with you.

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:26 am
by Fer Carranza
So, to clarify, in Wave progression you suggest the follow harmonic progression:
DMaj7 (D Lydian scale first degree)- Bb dim (Bb lydian first degree in the form of an auxiliary dimished scale)- Am7 (C lydian scale VI degree) and D7b9 (C lydian scale II degree in the form of a Lydian dimished scale).

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:12 pm
by chespernevins
So, to clarify, in Wave progression you suggest the follow harmonic progression:
DMaj7 (D Lydian scale first degree)- Bb dim (Bb lydian first degree in the form of an auxiliary dimished scale)- Am7 (C lydian scale VI degree) and D7b9 (C lydian scale II degree in the form of a Lydian dimished scale).Fer Carranza


Fer, yes, in my opinion that is a lot better. I think I would tend towards the G Lyd Dim or G Aux Dim over the Bb dim chord in this case, but that's open for debate. I like the fact that G Lyd Dim keeps the notes [D E F# G] intact.