I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

The main body of the LCC and its practical application, including all 4 published versions of Book 1 with their inserts: the 1959 tan cover; the 1959 light green cover Japanese edition; the 1970‘s white cover, which adds an illustrated River Trip to the 1959 edition, and the currently available Fourth Edition, 2001.

The authorization code is the first word on Page 198 of the Fourth Edition of the LCCTO.

Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams

Forum rules
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice

I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby Fer Carranza » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:13 pm

Hi: I can´t remember how LCC deal with dimished chords, in what category of chords they fit??? In example a Edim chord....I tend to link this chord to a A7b9 because they share the most of the tones in common: E-G-Bb-Db (E dim) and A-C#-E-G-Bb (A7b9). Do you make the same assumption??? Thanks folks, and forgive me, I can remember making the same question but I can´t find the answer!!!
Fernando
Fer Carranza
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Argentina

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby gvetsch » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:40 pm

Hi Fer
Yes the Edim chord relates to A7b9 but also C7b9,Eb7b9,and Gb7b9. If you lower any tone of Edim{E G Bb Db)by a half step
you get the four seventh chords-A7,C7,Eb7,Gb7. Or think down a maj 3rd from any Edim cord tone.
Now this is common music theory and not unique to the LCC.
Of course there are more ways to define how we use dim chords in a progression like CMaj7-C#dim7-Dmin7 which can be
viewed as CMaj7-A7b9-Dmin7.




Greg
gvetsch
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:39 am

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby Fer Carranza » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:44 pm

Thanks, very useful!!! What it can be the logical assumption wearing LCC dealing with a dim chord??
Fer Carranza
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Argentina

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby chespernevins » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:35 pm

Check out the footnote on p. 25: "Augmented and diminished chords are regarded as belonging primarily to the I major and VI minor chord categories of the Lydian Chromatic Scale."

I think the rationale is that you look down the left side of chart A as the first step. You are trying to identify the primary modal tonic degree. Diminished is housed under the I "altered Major" degree. (This is somewhat unfamilar logic until you get used to it). Then you go to the Seven Principal Scales and the first scale down that gives us the dim chord on the I degree is the most ingoing choice. The scale is Lydian diminished.

If you start again, looking for another option, the dim chord is housed under the VI "altered Minor" degree. Then you go to the Seven Principal Scales and the first scale down that gives us the dim chord on the VI degree is the most ingoing choice. The scale happens be Lyd. Dim. as well.

Remember, this is just saying that Lydian Dim is the most ingoing scale in a vertical sense, it's not saying that it is the right scale for every musical situation that contains a dim chord.
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby Fer Carranza » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:06 pm

Thanks Chesper!!! I could see it now....
Fer Carranza
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Argentina

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby NateComp » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:46 pm

Chesper got it right with (in regard to dim as PMG I or PMG VI of Lyd Dim) "this is just saying that Lydian Dim is the most ingoing scale in a vertical sense, it's not saying that it is the right scale for every musical situation that contains a dim chord".

For me, the two big things that determine how I interpret a dim chord are 1., the context of the chord in the progression (where am I coming from and where am I going) and 2., what "color" would be appropriate to use on the chord if I extend it beyond just the chord tones (if I want to add 9, b9, etc.)

Here are some options I like (including what Chesper mentioned, along with some others):

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
As PMG I of E Lyd Dim, we have E F# G A#(Bb) B C#(Db) D# E
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a Major 7th (D#), a 9th (F#), and oddly enough, a natural 5th (B).

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
As PMG VI of G Lyd Dim, we have G A Bb C#(Db) D E F# G
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have Minor 7th (D), a 9th (F#), and an 11th (A).

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
*As PMG +IV of Bb Lyd Dim, we have Bb C Db E F G A Bb
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a b9th (F), an 11th (A) and a b13th (C).
I think this is a much more "remote" option Vertically because of the amount of tension within the scale, but it is STILL a possible choice.

Chord: E dim 7 (E G Bb Db) - R b3 b5 bb7
As PMG I of E Aux Dim (the Whole-Half Dim), we have E F# G A Bb C C#(Db) D# E
So, along with the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a Major 7th (D#), a 9th (F#), an 11th (A), and a b13th (C).
This is an "in between" choice Vertically, yet I think still it's a nice one, simply because we have some of the extensions from the most "ingoing" Dim sound (PMG I of Lyd Dim, which is where we have the Major 7th and 9th sounds), as well as some more "outgoing" tensions for "color" (the 11th and b13th).

Like I said, for me it's all about context. It's all a matter of how much you want the chord to "come alive".

You could play nothing but a Dim 7th arpeggio, all just chord tones, and be "living" in all 4 of these "environments" simultaneously. I think the most interesting observation is this:

Chord Tones followed by tensions:

E dim 7th as PMG I of E Lyd Dim: E G Bb Db (D# F# B) = R b3 b5 bb7 7 9 Nat.5

E dim 7th as PMG VI of G Lyd Dim: E G Bb Db (D F# A) = R b3 b5 bb7 b7 9 11

E dim 7th as PMG +IV of Bb Lyd Dim: E G Bb Db (F A C) = R b3 b5 bb7 b9 11 b13

E dim 7th as PMG I of E Aux Dim: E G Bb Db (D# F# A C) = R b3 b5 bb7 7 9 11 b13

That's 11 out of 12 notes in the Chromatic Scale. The only tone missing is G#, the Major 3rd, which of course is no coincidence :)
NateComp
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:32 am

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby Fer Carranza » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:37 am

Great answer!!!! Thanks....I will use it with this help.
Fer Carranza
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Argentina

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby chespernevins » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:32 am

Great post, NateComp, thanks.

As PMG +IV of Bb Lyd Dim, we have Bb C Db E F G A Bb


This is cool.

I just wanted to point out that this +IV Modal Tonic degree is listed on chart A as an Alternate Modal Tonic (AMT).

I think Chart A is really supporting your choice to add +IV as a Modal Tonic Degree (whether Primary or Alternate) because it is the only AMT listed in the I or VI PMG categories that is a vertical AMT (no "h" next to it).
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby chespernevins » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:43 am

Take the chord progression, in Db (I chose Db to use the Edim chord):

| F- | Edim | Eb- |Ab7 | Db |

What scale choice makes sense for Edim?

I often find it most practical on the fly to think Db Lydian Diminished.

| AbL VI | Db LD/bIII | Gb VI| Gb II | Db I |

It's just easier for me, because we are in Db, to remember to choose Db LD - and it sounds good.

There is no bIII PMT or AMT, but the bIII mode of LD calls this mode the I Lyd Dim over the bIII degree.

Isn't it interesting that this choice now includes the G# (Ab) over the E dim... or, does this count because we are really playing a Db dim/E, and there is no major third (F)...
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby Fer Carranza » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:16 pm

I want to introduce for further analysis the four firsts chords of Wave (Antonio Jobim):

DMaj7- Bbdim- Am7- D7b9


In that case, and playing the melodic material is clear that the scale to wear over Bb dim chord like first choice is C dimished, that is: C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb. This scale it can be founded in LCC if we choose to spell the chord like a first degree of Bb, in Bb Auxiliary Dimished. Another choice is choosing VI degree of Db, in Db Auxiliary Dimished, and so on. But for me, at last for this song the most ingoing place to go is spelling it like IIIh degree of F#, in the form of F# Auxiliary Dimished Blues, and I choose this because the horizontal nature of the chord, searching to solve in Am7, the next one. Obviously, everyone can going out of this convention and choose another one, this is my modality (not to choose the most ingoing place but wearing some Lydian/Lydian derivate scale associate to the chord in random election). What do you think??
Fer Carranza
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Argentina

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby NateComp » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:24 am

Well, this thread is shaping up nicely :D

Something I wanted to touch on (both Chesper and Fer hit on these ideas a bit) that I started to explore a long time ago:

E dim 7 = E G Bb Db

And an E dim 7 is ALSO = G dim 7, Bb dim 7, Db dim 7

SO, look at all of the choices I listed before for E dim 7, BUT, using the different possible names for this chord, see how it fits as different PMG numerals.

Example I listed before, with new "perspectives":

Chord: E dim 7
As PMG I of E Lyd Dim, we have E F# G A#(Bb) B C#(Db) D# E
This is where we had the chord tones of the E Dim 7, we also have a Major 7th (D#), a 9th (F#), and the natural 5th (B).

If we RENAME THIS CHORD as G dim 7...

It's the bIII of E Lyd Dim (or, as Chesper mentioned, the I PMG chord/bIII in the bass)

Giving us G Bb B C# (Db) D# E F# G

RENAMING the E dim 7 as a G dim 7 all of the sudden changes the RELATIONSHIP of intervals to the chord:
we have all 4 chord tones, PLUS the Major 7th (F#), the b13 (D#/Eb), and what do you know, the Major 3rd (B).

If we RENAME THIS CHORD as Bb dim 7...

It's the +IV of E Lyd Dim
(one of the other choices I listed before)

And if we RENAME THIS CHORD as Db dim 7...

It's the VI of E Lyd Dim
(also one of the other choices I listed before)

This EXACT SAME IDEA works using Aux Dim, but because of the symmetrical nature of this particular scale, you end up just DUPLICATING the tones of the original Parent Scale:

Chord: E dim 7
As PMG I of E Aux Dim, we have E F# G A Bb C C#(Db) D# E

If we RENAME THIS CHORD as G dim 7...

It's the bIII of E Aux Dim (once again, it's really the I PMG chord/bIII in the bass)
Giving us G A Bb C C#(Db) D# E F# G
In this case, renaming the E dim 7 as a G dim 7 DOES NOT change the relationship of intervals to the chord, because E Aux Dim IS G Aux Dim!

This is also true if we RENAME THIS CHORD as Bb dim 7 (the +IV of E Aux Dim, but Bb Aux Dim IS E Aux Dim) or if If we RENAME THIS CHORD as Db dim 7 (the VI of E Aux Dim, but Db Aux Dim IS E Aux Dim)

Here's where I'm going with this:

E dim 7 = G dim 7 = Bb dim 7 = Db dim 7 (all the same chord, inversions of each other, four possible interpretations)

From an "E" Parent Scale, that's I, bIII (or I/bIII), +IV and VI

From a "G" Parent Scale, that's VI, I, bIII (I/bIII), and +IV

From a "Bb" Parent Scale, that's +IV, VI, I and bIII (I/bIII)

And from a "Db" Parent Scale, that's bIII (I/bIII), +IV, VI and I

Crazy stuff, yet so simple and organized.


Final thing that Fer hit on:

In the "Wave" progression, D Maj 7- Bb dim 7 - A min 7

I agree that there's certainly a "striving" for the A min 7, and I certainly "hear" that change (the Bb dim 7 to A min 7) as a strong horizontal situation.

So how do we treat the Bb dim 7? It could be a I (from Bb), a bIII (or I/bIII, from G), a +IV (from E), or a VI (from Db).

Here's the cool thing about the conclusion that Fer came to:

Calling it a IIIh from the F# Aux Dim Blues is NO DIFFERENT than calling it I of Bb Aux Dim!

That's because F# Aux Dim Blues IS Bb Aux Dim!

F# Aux Dim Blues = F# G A A# (Bb) C C# (Db) D# (Eb) E F#

Bb Aux Dim (as well as E Aux Dim, G Aux Dim, and Db Aux Dim) = Bb C C# (Db) D# (Eb) E F# G A Bb

No matter how you look at it (even though there is some "redundancy", it's also "continuity"), you end up with all of the same choices. Yikes!
NateComp
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:32 am

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby chespernevins » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:46 am

the most ingoing place to go is spelling it like IIIh degree of F#, in the form of F# Auxiliary Dimished Blues


I agree that the notes of this scale fit the harmony, however, I don't think it can be called a IIIh mode.

The IIIh mode implies that the Gb Lydian scale resolves to a triad built on Bb. The definition of this triad is that:

1. it uses notes from the Gb Lydian scale

2. it is something OTHER than the vertical interpretation of a III chord, which is GbL/Bb.

3. it is from a sharp lying lydian key (resulting in the parent lydian scale (Gb L) RESOLVING to the sharp lying triad).

4. it must be a major or minor triad to create a stable harmony that the conceptual mode can resolve to. The dim. triad is too unstable to resolve to.

So in this case, we can build a Bb minor triad on the III of Gb. The IIIh mode of GbL is a mode that resolves to a Bb minor triad. The Bb minor chord is really from Db Lydian. Gb Lyd resolves in a sharp direction to Db Lyd.

We can have horizontal scales outside of the designation of these conceptual modal genres (CMG) which could be used in this situation, but the CMGs are a very specific thing.

See. p. 116 in the book.
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby Fer Carranza » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:17 am

Cool stuff!!! Great analysis Nat!!! The only thing I don´t understand is where NatCom derives the tone B over the E dimished chord, the scale for me it would be: E-F#-G-A-Bb-C (instead of B you write)-Db-Eb in the spell of auxiliary dimished scale of E Lydian. Or INTOH like an auxiliary dimished blues scale from E: E-F-G-G#-A#-B-C#-D.
Good point Chesper, very interesting, I agree with you.
Fer Carranza
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Argentina

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby Fer Carranza » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:26 am

So, to clarify, in Wave progression you suggest the follow harmonic progression:
DMaj7 (D Lydian scale first degree)- Bb dim (Bb lydian first degree in the form of an auxiliary dimished scale)- Am7 (C lydian scale VI degree) and D7b9 (C lydian scale II degree in the form of a Lydian dimished scale).
Fer Carranza
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am
Location: Argentina

Re: I don´t remember it!!! about dimished chords.

Postby chespernevins » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:12 pm

So, to clarify, in Wave progression you suggest the follow harmonic progression:
DMaj7 (D Lydian scale first degree)- Bb dim (Bb lydian first degree in the form of an auxiliary dimished scale)- Am7 (C lydian scale VI degree) and D7b9 (C lydian scale II degree in the form of a Lydian dimished scale).Fer Carranza


Fer, yes, in my opinion that is a lot better. I think I would tend towards the G Lyd Dim or G Aux Dim over the Bb dim chord in this case, but that's open for debate. I like the fact that G Lyd Dim keeps the notes [D E F# G] intact.
chespernevins
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:34 am

Next

Return to Lydiation (LCC General Discussion)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron