Dissonance Versus Outgoingness

The main body of the LCC and its practical application, including all 4 published versions of Book 1 with their inserts: the 1959 tan cover; the 1959 light green cover Japanese edition; the 1970‘s white cover, which adds an illustrated River Trip to the 1959 edition, and the currently available Fourth Edition, 2001.

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Dissonance Versus Outgoingness

Postby strachs » Fri May 08, 2009 9:02 am

What's your take on this?
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Postby dds1234 » Fri May 08, 2009 9:41 am

Personally I find them interchangeable... Although I do feel one has much more of a negative connotation.

-Daniel
=^_^=
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Postby dds1234 » Mon May 11, 2009 5:59 pm

Was it your idea to ask if dissonance had to do with HTG?
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Postby strachs » Tue May 12, 2009 10:55 am

Not really.

The reason I want to see if there is a distinction is this:

Put the 12 tones of equal temperament in a row spaced by fifths, 1 through 12. Numbers 1 through 7 are the 7TO, a Lydian scale. Tones 8 through 12 are the "outgoing" tones.

In Russell's "Lydian Chromatic Scale", the 8th tone is placed last in the chain and termed the "12 tone order". The other "out" tones are left in their original spaced-by-fifths order.

If outgoingness equals dissonance, then an objective, quantized increase in dissonance would be heard/felt with each higher order. On page 106 of LCCOTO , we find the only mention of the word "dissonant", and it is seen to be replaced by the term "outgoing", for reasons of objectivity.

That would suggest that outgoingness is, in effect, "measured" or determined by a tone's actual distance in fifths from the Lydian Tonic.

My question though, is: if outgoingness has more to do with distance from the Lydian tonic than it does with the quality we usually term "dissonance", why does the Lydian Chromatic scale treat the 8th tone in the chain of fifths as the most outgoing, placing it in the 12TO?

I'm not trying to pick apart Russell's book or theory. I just think that a closer look at the ingoing-to-outgoing gradient is warranted. If the 8th tone in the chain of fifths is such a stark contradiction to the idea of a grade in fifths (which it is), then perhaps the other tones (from 9 to 12) should not be assumed to offer such a neat, consonant-to-dissonant grade.

Obviously, the outgoingness of the 11- and 12- tone orders is not due simply to distance from the Lydian Tonic, but is something that can be audibly heard as dissonance. It's as if these tones resist sounding simultaneously with the Lydian Scale. So the subjective consideration of sound is deemed important rather than the conceptual "distance" that these tones occupy from a Lydian Tonic.

The remaining three tones, the 9th, 10th, and 11th (considered by Russell to be tonal orders 8 through 10) should likewise be rated along the same lines, in my opinion.

Our acceptance of the objectivity of a Lydian-based perspective was mostly due to experiencing what vertical unity SOUNDS LIKE when we compare the Lydian scale and the Major scale side-by-side. Attributing that unity to the ladder of fifths seems reasonable, so we begin viewing the musical world from that objective, Lydian perspective.

One would like to then treat the "out" tones similarly, but the 8th tone forces us to acknowledge that something different happens there. We encounter the MOST outgoing tone, where you might expect to find only a SLIGHTLY more outgoing one.

So we gladly place the 8th tone in the position of most outgoing, the 12 tone order. What about the other tones? Do you personally experience the Lydian Augmented, Lydian Diminished, and Lydian Flat Seventh scales and their chords to unfold in a gradual, ordered, venture into dissonance, or outgoingness?

That is my question. I'd like to hear what you hear/experience in those scales/tonal orders, and whether that ingoing-to-outgoing order agrees with your ears or not.

If outgoingness is different than dissonance, maybe the order should not be interrupted as with the LCS. If it is the same thing, we should verify that the LCS is in fact a representation of consonant-to-dissonant.

(It doesn't help that you don't always know whether you're dealing with LA or Lb7)


***BTW, if I had said yes, do you have a theory on that?***
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Postby dds1234 » Thu May 14, 2009 9:20 pm

No, I was just curious! =^_^=

Hmm... I'll have to really play around with the higher orders a bit more...
I cannot honestly give you an answer. It's a bit hard for me to rate such a thing via comparison, seems a bit ridiculous because my mind finds a different tonical center each time... Not the lowest tone, but the most outgoing. (More than likely the lowest tone that relates to the most outgoing tone)

One thing I do know is that the bIII and +V sound the exact same distance away from the lydian tonic to me. (The same outgoingness)
Last edited by dds1234 on Fri May 15, 2009 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dds1234 » Thu May 14, 2009 9:39 pm

Well, I've been messing around with different ways of playing it... or an absolute way to tell the difference and... Now I am just confused.
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Postby dds1234 » Fri May 15, 2009 9:24 am

Does anyone have an accurate way to test this? Due to the lack of sustain in the higher register of a piano I don't really have time to really wonder about it. I think I am just going to make examples using a pure sine wave.

Anyone way ahead of me by any chance?
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Postby strachs » Fri May 15, 2009 10:29 am

It is not as simple as it seems, is it? Our musical training and experience can actually make us less objective when it comes to discerning levels of dissonance.

I wonder if consensus on this can even be reached? If not, then the Lydian Chromatic Order is one working model that one may use, but the musician/theorist/whatever should at least acknowledge, as we do with Equal Temperament, that we are accepting something as a common-sense compromise, not because it is perfect or even objective.

On the other hand, if consensus can be reached, will the results agree with the Lydian Chromatic Order, or some other ordering of ingoing-to-outgoing?

I invite as many as are willing to listen and weigh in, even sharing your method for comparing these tonal orders in a fairly objective way.
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Postby dds1234 » Fri May 15, 2009 1:01 pm

I have a track built now with the order (in C lydian) with a C# then a G# proceeding in different octaves... It seems with these sort of tests the octave REALLY matters. That's what I am having trouble with, making a decision. I think I am going to ask some of my non-musician friends what they think about each one.
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