Revison on previous posts.

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Revison on previous posts.

Postby dds1234 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:25 am

Intro-- I remember seeing a post about thirdless sound, which I experimented with before being introduced to the concept. I truly believe this aspect is a must-have in modern music. Tertian harmony is just a bit too vague for consonance to be truly manipulated.

Which leads me to make this statement--- Personal preference is golden!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Because of the appearance of the III, in the major triad, I personally think that a series of fifths seventh chord is more "consonant" than a major triad. This applies to all tertian harmony.

----Tonic position assumed for the most ingoing habitat. Example>>>

(I V II VI)---(I III V)
seventh------triad

III=fifth location in consonance to dissonance*.
VI=fourth position in tonal gravity*.

Tonal Gravity.
I V II VI III
1 2 3 4 5

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary-- My reason for believing this is the fact that ingoing notes denote equality of a chords sound. Not the amount of chord tones...
I expect few will agree on this matter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Consonance and tonal gravity are apparently equals.


Sorry if the examples look jumbled!! It looked terrible without the spacing, dashes, and disorder...
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Postby strachs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:02 pm

I just noticed this post, and that no one had replied.

Can I point out that the Seventh chord does not contain the V note of the Lydian Scale, but rather the +IV, which is more outgoing from the Lydian tonic than III?

It's an interesting concept, though, that a chord's "consonance" can be inferred, or is dictated primarily by it's tones' proximity to the Lydian Tonic.

Does anyone have a theory or some thoughts on the concept of Consonance/Dissonance versus Ingoing-"ness"/Ougoing-"ness"? It strikes me that the two are differentiated in LCC-circles.
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Postby Andrew » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:41 pm

Thanks for reviving this post Strachs because thirdless sound is something I'm very OCD with, like last Winter semester I completely immersed myself in quartal harmony, staying up all night quite of a few times and missing my theory class the next morning to get more sleep or work some more on my own studies. I haven't been able to find my notebook of my studies for quite some time but I'll just try and remember some ideas:

For one I'm quite confused as to why during the renassaince there seemed to be such a transormation from Quintal to Tertian that by the Baroque era paralled fifths were a big no no!

The major triad is most commonly defended because it represents the first few series in the overtone series (c c G C E)

But this doesn't make the most sense because with every note you play, each note has it's own set of overtones, so if we look at each overtone within a C triad:

C (C C G C E)
E ( E E B E G#)
G (G G D G B)

we get a lot of overtones that 'clash' with each other. (C B) (G G#) (D E) etc. Not that the clash is bad necassarily, but you would think that we could try and find a base harmony that has the least amount of clash, and build harmony from there.

I've concluded that there are three levels of harmonic structure, based on the tone series. Quintal (Quartal) is based on overtone series 3 and 4, Tertian, based on series 5-7, and cluster, based on series 8+.

So if we make a three note harmony on fifths, and then we look at each quintal overtone on each note:

C (C C G C)
G (G G D G)
D (D D A D)

You find a lot less "clash." Even if you look further in the overtones:

C (C C G C E G)
G (G G D G B D)
D ( D D A D F# A)

You still see less clash than with the C major triad. You could make a C MAJ 13 #11 tertian order with those overtones, whereas with the C Major overtones it's kind of uncertain what you could do with those overtones.

I will definitely post more about this soon.
"Life finds a way"- Wayne Shorter
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Postby dds1234 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:55 pm

That's a quintal/quartal seventh. I was just pointing out that the III occurs later than the VI in the succession of fifths/TG chart. If I lack clarity, please tell me!

-------------------------------------------------------------
Example for clarity of my rushed lackluster post:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tonal gravity

I V II VI III
1 2 3 4 5

I III V
1 5 2
-------------------------------------------------------------
^Some dashes for ya'!


When I made this post I had never even heard of quintal or quartal harmony! I had just skimmed by the term thirdless sound... Then I noticed that in an improvising habit I had, I used just that. My manner was to just rapidly move ascending fifth triads, quintal triads, around as to not really have a feel... for a goal - a movement in gravity/music.
I couldn't taste a tonic in other words.

Does anyone use the Scorch plugin for any of their sheet music? I cannot find many artists who use this form of harmony... Or songs/scores rather. I'd like ta' hear some examples of it's use coupled with tertian harmony.

I'm flattered at the post resurrection by the way.
-Would like to see this thread bloom, I'd love to hear all of your personal thoughts/criticisms.
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Postby Andrew » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:34 pm

My first reply was just a jumble of thoughts not necessarily tied to any one particular part of the original start, except with your discussion of triads and tertian harmony sounding more vague. I think any discussion like this is inevitibly going to lead to Quintal harmony (but I'm very biased).

In terms of identifying each note of a harmony based on its rank in tonal gravity, I've kind of set up my own system for this. Within this system there's four different voices:

Lydian Tonic LT
Definition tone DT (Most outgoing tone)
Inner voices IV (voices inbetween the Lydian Tonic and Definition Tone)
Implied inner voices IIV (notes not stated within the LT and DT

So in a C major triad. C is the LT, E is the DT (V) G is the IV and D and A are the IIV

All tertian triads represent incomplete orders because so many of the inner voices are missing in it. Major and minor triads represent inc. five-tone. Diminished triads represent inc. seven-tone orders, and augmented triads represent inc. nine-tone orders.

Sorry if I seem to be digressing, I just am really enthusiastic about this kind of stuff.
"Life finds a way"- Wayne Shorter
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Postby strachs » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:56 am

Hey guys, if you are interested in quartal/quintal stuff, you may be interested in this:

http://www.imeem.com/people/Bev3VgU/mus ... etropolis/

Listen to the break that starts at 4:17. These guys got me into chord voicings using stacked fifths (not to mention odd meter). While this section ivolves melodic intervals, they often voice their chords with fifths, second, fourths and ninths, achieving ambiguous and fresh sounds, usually within the seven-tone universe.

Although much of their music is heavier than I really like, I really love hearing adventurous composition and musicianship using synthesizers and guitars on an even footing (usually you have to choose between hearing guitar music or keyboard music, with Dream Theater, you get excellent sounds in both worlds).

BTW, imeem.com is a great place to check out music before you buy. Everything is on-demand streaming, but if you want to download, they direct you to itunes or amazon.com.
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Postby dds1234 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:00 pm

Ah, speaking of Herbie's Mwandishi era... You'll Know When You Get There (on the album Mwandishi) has some interestingly melodic use of quintal harmony.

Didn't think I would ever see any Dream Theater fans on this forum... On Metropolis part two did you know The Dance of Eternity has over one hundred time signature changes in a six minute span? For progressive Rock/Metal I also enjoy Magma but... They are damned heavy!

*cough* extremely off topic but even more catchy *cough*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zikTA3dYOKQ
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Postby Andrew » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:05 pm

I feel proud that I have hijacked this thread into quintal harmony. :) Dream Theater is great even though they are very heavy. I think it's good that they are heavier so that they can appeal to a wider audience. At 4:17 it sounds like they are doing a lot of 9-8 suspensions executed in fifths and fourths. That is a very fun sound, I don't know if I've really heard something like that before, at least not that explicitly.

Something else that's important to think about is the sound of the pentatonic scale. I believe the reason why the pentatonic scale is such an easy sound that's been utilized in virtually every nationalities folk music is because of it's consonance within tonal gravity. The pentatonic scale only goes up to the fifth ladder of fifths (C G D A E).
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Postby strachs » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:13 am

Andrew: You're right about the pentatonic scale. I have even come to view it as a kind of 'five-tone-order', since it seems to exist in a little universe by itself. It has enouph tones to produce a scale with a very signature sound, a major triad, and a relative major/minor system.

It's also interesting to create pentatonic scales using five adjacent tones a little further up the Lydian ladder. The tones that are omitted seem to have as much to to with the resulting sound charachter as the tones that are sounded.

On the Dream Theater tangent: I agree that DT is often much heavier than I have a taste for, but their musical devices are way up my alley. Although I didn't much like their stint with Derek Sherinian on keys, I did find his piano solo on the "Once In a Live Time" album. It uses a bunch of chords voiced in stacked fourths (including raised fourths) over the Phrygian mode. Cool sound. Interesting dissonances, while sill remaining in the 7TO.
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Postby dds1234 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:39 am

I kind of feel like this melds with the harmonic conditioning thread...

Well all threads on this forum weave together now that I mention it.
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