Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy

The main body of the LCC and its practical application, including all 4 published versions of Book 1 with their inserts: the 1959 tan cover; the 1959 light green cover Japanese edition; the 1970‘s white cover, which adds an illustrated River Trip to the 1959 edition, and the currently available Fourth Edition, 2001.

The authorization code is the first word on Page 198 of the Fourth Edition of the LCCTO.

Moderators: bobappleton, sandywilliams

Forum rules
An open letter from Alice Russell. June 21, 2011, Brookline, Massachusetts. 1. DO NOT make insulting, mean spirited remarks about anyone or their work; there are a plethora of sites where you can rant unfettered. If you attack someone personally, your comments will be removed. You can post it, but I'm not paying for it. Go elsewhere, and let those artists who are actually interested in discussion and learning have the floor. 2. There will be NO posting of or links to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright owner. That's the law. And if you respect the work of people who make meaningful contributions, you should have no problem following this policy. 3. I appreciate many of the postings from so many of you. Please don't feel you have to spend your time "defending" the LCC to those who come here with the express purpose of disproving it. George worked for decades to disprove it himself; if you know his music, there's no question that it has gravity. And a final word: George was famous for his refusal to lower his standards in all areas of his life, no matter the cost. He twice refused concerts of his music at Lincoln Center Jazz because of their early position on what was authentically jazz. So save any speculation about the level of him as an artist and a man. The quotes on our websites were not written by George; they were written by critics/writers/scholars/fans over many years. Sincerely, Alice

Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy

Postby Andrew » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:20 am

This could seem really off topic, but have you guys read or are familiar with Nietzsche's aesthetic work "The Birth of Tragedy"? In it he discusses in art, especially early Greek tragedy, the presence of two opposed elements, the Apollinian element, concerned with order, harmony, and unity, and the Dionysian element, concerned with chaos and eroticism. Anyway don't you think this good relate two Russell's aesthetics?
"Life finds a way"- Wayne Shorter
Andrew
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: Washington State

Postby Bob » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:51 am

Yes. Also, the dialectical 'tension' between creativity-passion and craft-consolidation. Even on this forum, the 'tension' between theory and practise.; as seen in the tendency to view players as distinct from theorists, intellect v emotion. Jazz seems to have shifted from the Dionysian epoch of Parker through Coltrane to an Apollonian epoch of consolidating their innovations.
The synthesis in Russell may be seen, e.g., in the blending of the theoretical and the spiritual. I'd be most interested in how you view Russell's aesthetics from Nietsche's perspective, the view from Delphi. I will reread The BofT in the meantime.(I believe some of the forumistas are off battling Luddites on another site.)
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am

Postby dogbite » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:07 am

i was actually pondering a response to andrew's post, but i finally realized: i got nuthin' - i need more...

more what?

the duality andrew speaks of - player vs theorist, intellect vs emotion, order vs chaos, etc...

is there one specific dynamic you were referring to, pertaining to russell?

Db
dogbite
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Postby Andrew » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:48 pm

dogbite wrote:i was actually pondering a response to andrew's post, but i finally realized: i got nuthin' - i need more...

more what?

the duality andrew speaks of - player vs theorist, intellect vs emotion, order vs chaos, etc...

is there one specific dynamic you were referring to, pertaining to russell?

Db


Well I was was eluding to George's concept of the objective-subjective, vertical-horizontal dichotomies.
"Life finds a way"- Wayne Shorter
Andrew
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: Washington State

Postby Andrew » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:53 pm

Bob wrote:Yes. Also, the dialectical 'tension' between creativity-passion and craft-consolidation. Even on this forum, the 'tension' between theory and practise.; as seen in the tendency to view players as distinct from theorists, intellect v emotion. Jazz seems to have shifted from the Dionysian epoch of Parker through Coltrane to an Apollonian epoch of consolidating their innovations.
The synthesis in Russell may be seen, e.g., in the blending of the theoretical and the spiritual. I'd be most interested in how you view Russell's aesthetics from Nietsche's perspective, the view from Delphi. I will reread The BofT in the meantime.(I believe some of the forumistas are off battling Luddites on another site.)


Yes exactly! And you hit it on the mark with the Dionysian Parker-to-Coltrane. And I tend to view what people are doing today as trying to organize all the different stuff that was going on in the 60's into a more accessible package, I guess like trying to Appolinian-ize the Dionysian, trying to bring order from the chaos.
"Life finds a way"- Wayne Shorter
Andrew
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: Washington State

Postby dogbite » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:36 am

forgive me for appearing like an idiot. i guess i've never thought of VTG vs HTG as opposite poles; rather, bob's historical perspective seems more fitting...

humankind is constantly working through chaos to seek order - it is a natural evolution - the quest to make sense of the world around us. new music may seem chaotic in terms of the mores of one's culture, but what generation has ever been comfortable with the music of their offspring? however, change is inevitable and must eventually be embraced. in musical terms, the balance between chaos and order may be perceived as a metaphor for motion (excitement) and rest (boredom) - hey, i see it now:

the chord at rest, suspended in time, in the moment, at rest (VTG) vs chords in motion, seeking resolution (HTG) from a state of excitement and adventure...

two very different topics are evolving here, but are they really all that different - musical tension as a metaphor for human experience?

am i still being an idiot? maybe so, but i think i learned something today - or did i miss the whole point entirely, that andrew was making?

Db
dogbite
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Postby Andrew » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:20 am

dogbite wrote:forgive me for appearing like an idiot. i guess i've never thought of VTG vs HTG as opposite poles; rather, bob's historical perspective seems more fitting...

humankind is constantly working through chaos to seek order - it is a natural evolution - the quest to make sense of the world around us. new music may seem chaotic in terms of the mores of one's culture, but what generation has ever been comfortable with the music of their offspring? however, change is inevitable and must eventually be embraced. in musical terms, the balance between chaos and order may be perceived as a metaphor for motion (excitement) and rest (boredom) - hey, i see it now:

the chord at rest, suspended in time, in the moment, at rest (VTG) vs chords in motion, seeking resolution (HTG) from a state of excitement and adventure...

two very different topics are evolving here, but are they really all that different - musical tension as a metaphor for human experience?

am i still being an idiot? maybe so, but i think i learned something today - or did i miss the whole point entirely, that andrew was making?

Db


Hey, everyone need to be an idiot at some point, or else we wouldn't learn!

Well, can everyone reread pages 214-215 of the fourth edition of the concept, just for this post?
"Life finds a way"- Wayne Shorter
Andrew
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: Washington State

Postby Bob » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:49 am

Wow. This thread has got my brain going in the "six directions." In one sense I see VTG and HTG not so much polar opposites but, to use a Cartesian metaphor, as X & Y axes, while the 'trend line,' acheived by path analysis or multiple regression analysis, represents the 'shape' of the entire piece. OK, statistics is an acquired taste.

Viewed as the poles of a dialectic, thesis & antithesis, the balance GR refers to, may be considered as a synthesis, and as music continues to evolve, the synthesis, becomes a thesis, requiring an antithesis, and music/life continues to evolve. Nature, social change, ... requires this.

Russell, pp 214-215, uses the language of Theosophy to express this through active, passive, and neutral forces.

A Buddhist might note that opposites are mutually defining, and cannot exist without one another. Try thinking about up without down, good without evil. Interpenetration. or Inter-being.

Nietzsche's Apollonian-Dionysian dialectic is a very interesting take.

In our 'local' jazz scene, the mid-young Apollo's, can play every lick of the Parker-Coltrane epoch, while ignoring the Dionysian creative passion from which it sprung. One listens, is able to reference every tune and lick, but is left cold by the lack of 'fire.' They respond with disdain, if inadvertently exposed to something that doesn't fit the 'rule book.' Jazz by the numbers. The Conservatory here has become a museum. I'm overgeneralizing, of course, at least I hope I am.

Yet, beyond the walls of the fortress, there is plenty of creative music going on; often with a post-modern aesthetic (neo-cons hate that word). Juxtapositions of world music, jazz, funk, classical, serial are risky, but exciting to my Dionysian soul. Some examples, we've a guitarist (Mike Standahl), who is a sort of Wes Montgomery meets John Hendrix. Marvelous! A group called Mrs. Fun who in one set played Stand By Your Man, Thelonius Monk, and a Puerto Rican traditional plena. Jason Seed, classical, jazz, salsa. And organizing in a mountain cave - En Clave (English-Spanish pun intended.

For those now horrified, and despairing over the future of jazz, you may find comfort in a good jazz history book. It's always been this way.
Bob
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:11 am


Return to Lydiation (LCC General Discussion)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest